802 Sarah Smith: Patient Progress

We need people to come to our platform and provide photos, reviews, information about these campgrounds. And how do you incentivize people to do that because that’s a big ask of your user base? So what we did is we gamified our site, and as you review a campground in Oregon, you’ll see yourself get points for that, five points for the photo, three points for the written review and 10 points for the video. And you go up and down this leaderboard and you’re competing with other people in your area.

And at the end of the month, the top reviewer in each contest will win a gift card from one of our brand partners. The interesting thing about that is they were paying us to be part of that contest, but at the same time, and probably more importantly, they were promoting us because these outdoor brands had a much bigger reach in the outdoor space than we did, at that time especially. So it was like a win-win.

One of the hardest types of startups to build is a platform that derives its value from user-generated content or social interaction. It’s the proverbial chicken and egg – especially when you need investment capital to build it and investors want to see revenue and traction before they invest. Today Sarah Smith shares how she built the Dyrt into the No. 1 app for camping information and booking, with 30 million annual camper visits, 50,000 campground listings, and 8 million user-generated reviews, photos, and tips for US campgrounds.

MELINDA

Hi, I’m Melinda Wittstock and welcome to Wings of Inspired Business, where we share the inspiring entrepreneurial journeys, epiphanies, and practical advice from successful female founders … so you have everything you need at your fingertips to build the business and life of your dreams. I’m a 5-time serial entrepreneur and the CEO and founder of Podopolo, the interactive app revolutionizing podcast discovery and discussion and making podcasting profitable for creators. I’d like to invite you to take a minute, download Podopolo from either app store, listen to the rest of this episode there, and join the conversation with your questions, perspectives, experiences, and advice … Because together we’re stronger, and we all soar higher when we fly together.

Today we meet an inspiring entrepreneur who was honored last year as one of Inc Magazine’s top 100 female founders.

Sarah Smith is the founder of The Dyrt, one of the most active online camping communities with more than 8 million campground reviews, photos and tips. With 30 million annual camper visits and reviews for more than 50,000 U.S. campgrounds, The Dyrt has grown to the largest online source of camping information and the only major platform to offer commission-free bookings for campgrounds.

Often the best startups are borne of our personal passions and for Sarah Smith it was a childhood love of camping. So back in 2013, frustrated by the lack of good reviews or information about camping sites around the US, she left her career in education to become an entrepreneur dedicated to making camping easier for everyone.

The Dyrt was borne and today we talk about what it took for her to build it to where it is today – and she shares her important lessons for any visionary founder. Hint – it is about being patient, and finding investors who really understand the problem you’re solving with your innovation. There’s much more of course, so let’s put on our wings with the inspiring Sarah Smith and be sure to download the podcast app Podopolo so we can keep the conversation going after the episode.

Melinda Wittstock:

Sarah, welcome to Wings.

Sarah Smith:

Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. Well, first off, what was the inspiration for The Dyrt?

Sarah Smith:

Well, The Dyrt is the go-to resource for finding camping, and it’s both a website and an app. And the reason I started The Dyrt is because I am an avid camper and I was really frustrated with the experience of trying to figure out where to go camping on my free weekends. I wanted to know where did you go last weekend and did you like it and what did the pictures look like? And at the time, this was almost 10 years ago now, there was no resource out there that really helped me find that sort of information. And I just kept saying, “Why doesn’t someone build Yelp or Trip Advisor for camping?” And you say something like that enough times to yourself when you realize, well, you’re a capable person. So decided with my husband and co-founder to start ourselves, and it’s been quite a ride for 10 years, but we now have a platform with over 8 million photos, videos, reviews, and tips of campgrounds all throughout the United States. So that was really the originating reason was because I was frustrated as a camper.

Melinda Wittstock:

So it’s like a Yelp, looks like it’s a go-to for, yeah, I can trust that this is the experience I’m going to have if I do this. Does it do more than the reviews?

Sarah Smith:

The reviews is really why we started in the first place, but it has become so much more than that. You can do bookings on The Dyrt, so you can not only see what a campground looks like, but you can then go ahead and book it on The Dyrt and then go back and review it so it’s like a full cycle. We have something called The Dyrt Pro, which will help you. It’s $36 a year, the rest of The Dyrt is totally free, but it helps you do all sorts of things. It can help you plan a route if you’re going from, I don’t know, Idaho to Florida in your RV and you want help figuring out where to stay along the way. It gives you discounts at partner campgrounds throughout the United States. It’s really a handy tool. So The Dyrt has a lot more than just the reviews now. And the thing we’ve just launched in the last couple of months is something called Dyrt Alerts.

If you’re a camper, you may have heard this, camping has just exploded in the last couple of` years with over 80 million Americans camping. And our campgrounds, as a result, have become really crowded and popular. So The Dyrt Alerts is something that will alert you to a cancellation at a campground that you can’t necessarily book on our platform, but we can alert you and let you know, “Hey, this really popular campground in Yosemite just opened up. Go grab the spot.”

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh, great. That’s really cool. I wish I’d known this when I was moving to California and I was driving from the East Coast all across the country, and this would’ve been very helpful.

Sarah Smith:

Were you camping along the way?

Melinda Wittstock:

We actually didn’t do that in the end. That was the original idea, but in the end we just did it pretty quickly and hotels and such. But how wonderful. So were you, as a kid, were you an avid camper? Have you been a lifelong camper?

Sarah Smith:

Yeah, I grew up in the north woods of Minnesota. You can hear my accent when I say that. I’ve lived in Oregon now for over 12 years and lived a lot of different places. But growing up in Minnesota, that was the thing we did as a family. For one thing, it wasn’t expensive thing to do. I used to always be like, “Can we go to Disney World like other kids?” And my parents were like, “No, we’re going to go camping.” So we spent a lot of time camping and fishing and driving around Lake Superior in the summers and just wonderful memories of camping when I was growing up.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s wonderful. So is it the full gamut of every type of camping? Is there glamping? Is there just basically everything?

Sarah Smith:

Basically everything. So on our site, you will find everything from the National Park campgrounds to State Park campgrounds to private RV resorts, to cabins, to glamping. And even one of the newest way to camp, people will rent out part of their private land and put a yurt on it or maybe an Airstream, and you can rent that out. So that’s a new way to camp. But glamping, we just did a report, a camping report that we do every year, and the results just came out earlier this year and glamping is up 10% this year from last year. And it’s really becoming a popular way to camp. And I think it’s great because there’s so many new campers. We had roughly about 7 million new campers last year and about the same amount the year before. And glamping, I think, is an easy way to get people exposed to camping. It’s comfortable, it’s easy. You don’t need all the gear for it. That can be intimidating. So really happy to see more people getting out to camp no matter how they do it.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, that’s amazing. So you founded this eight years ago or whatever. I mean, what were some of the toughest things about founding this company? If you go back in time, what would you tell yourself? What did you wish you knew back in the day?

Sarah Smith:

Yeah, just to be patient. I think all of us as founders, we have this vision of what we want our product to be, at least the initial product. You want it to be good and you want it to solve this problem, and everything takes so much longer than you think it’s going to take. Back in that in 2013 when me and Kevin, my husband and co-founder, were driving around and I’m like, “Why doesn’t someone build the Yelp for camping? Someone should build an app for this.” Even at that time when I started building an MVP with a contractor, it would still be, I think, three to four years before we actually had an app. We built a website and then we built a better website but at that time, we just focused more on that because we didn’t have a lot of resources to do both. So if you would’ve told me back then it would’ve taken me that long to get the first app out, I would’ve been like, okay, I am going to need a lot of patience for this.

Melinda Wittstock:

I mean, that’s been my experience too, especially anything to do with technology where you need an app or you need some sort of technology, it always takes so much longer. And then, of course, it’s a hypothesis until it’s not. So just all the user testing, is this working for users? Did I build it the right way? Is it converting? I mean, oh my God, there’s so many things like that. So how long did it take you before you started bringing in revenue for it?

Sarah Smith:

Well, that’s the thing about what The Dyrt is, that the premise of building a camping community and getting the most user generated content, photos, reviews, and tips of campgrounds, there’s no real inherent revenue model in that. So we, early on, had amazing investors who believed in us and believed that yes, this is a problem that needs to be solved and this is a community that needs to be brought together. And if you can do that, there will be ways to monetize that. So it wasn’t until right at the end of 2019, right at the beginning of 2020 that we launched The Dyrt Pro, which is the $36 a year annual subscription to these upgraded features that I mentioned. So as you can tell, we went years without having a clear revenue model and thankfully having a board of directors and early investors who really believed in our vision.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s amazing. So how did you bring in those investors at such an early stage? So many female founders, and I would put myself in this, who just say to you, “Hey, it’s great. Love the market, love the team, love the vision, love the product, love everything about it. Talk to us when you have revenue.”

Sarah Smith:

Yeah, yeah. That’s a great question. And I think this particular area, people who camp, people in the outdoors totally always understood the problem that we were trying to solve. And so finding people who really understood that problem and understood that 80 million Americans go camping. So when you do figure out to monetize, let’s say it’s $36 a year per person, you start to do the math on that, and that’s a very attractive possibility to investors. But for years I heard people say to me, and then keep in mind my husband and co-founder, he was there pitching with me and so that changes dynamics as well. But people telling us, “You can’t build a community. Do you know how hard it is to build a community?”

Melinda Wittstock:

Right.

Sarah Smith:

“Good luck. I’m out. See you later.”

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, yeah, no, that’s actually the hardest sort of business to get funding for, weirdly. And what’s so funny about those, and I have one like that in the podcasting space, is that the investors want it de-risk, they want you to prove that you can build this community but you got to do it without the money to really do any really significant marketing. So it makes it really hard.

Sarah Smith:

Well, it’s interesting. So that’s one of the things we did early on to make some revenue and also to help us get the word out, is we thought, okay, what we really need as a platform is we need people to come to our platform and provide photos, reviews, information about these campgrounds. And how do you incentivize people to do that because that’s a big ask of your user base? So what we did is we gamified our site, and this is still true to this day, but there’s contests throughout the country. So Oregon is one contest. New England is another contest and reviewers, as you review a campground in Oregon, you’ll see yourself get points for that, five points for the photo, three points for the written review and 10 points for the video. And you go up and down this leaderboard and you’re competing with other people in your area.

And at the end of the month, the top reviewer in each contest will win a gift card from one of our brand partners. So for example, in the past we worked with Gregory Backpack or Primus Stoves or different names in the outdoor brand. The interesting thing about that is they were paying us to be part of that contest, but at the same time, and probably more importantly, they were promoting us because these outdoor brands had a much bigger reach in the outdoor space than we did, at that time especially. So it was like a win-win. We got to raise less money because we were making money off these brands and at the same time spend less on marketing and having a reach we could have never dreamt of, of a very early stage startup.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s amazing. So I can see it’s all coming together for me, how you were recognized last year in the Female Founders Inc. 100 list of top women entrepreneurs. Congratulations.

Sarah Smith:

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that felt good.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, no, a hundred percent and not easy to do. Did it come out of the blue for you and what’s been the result of such an award?

Sarah Smith:

It was surprising. We have an awesome PR team who was in contact with them, trying to make it happen, had to do an interview. And then the results, it’s been really amazing. I went down to LA actually, they hosted a dinner for the 100 of us who could make it, and just to meet these other amazing female founders at this dinner, a lot of whom were in totally different spaces than me. That was probably the very best part is meeting and networking with these female founders. And it’s so often we go throughout our day and you just see another story and it’s like the guy in a hoodie and another guy in a hoodie. And then to go to this and just be inspired by these women doing amazing things was probably the highlight of the whole thing.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s interesting that you mention that because it’s so easy for men or women to feel isolated in the entrepreneurial journey, but I think for women more so because there’s just not, really necessarily, as many of us or certainly building big scalable businesses. Did you ever feel misunderstood by the people around you like “Wow, I really need to be around more entrepreneurs who actually understand me.”

Sarah Smith:

So I’ve done this entire journey in Portland, Oregon, and there’s a really, really robust founder scene here. And there’s this group that I’ve been a part of called Starve Ups, like starving artists, Starve Ups.

Melinda Wittstock:

[inaudible 00:14:13].

Sarah Smith:

And many people we would not be in business this day had we not been a part of that group. It’s founder to founder mentoring. You can let it all hang out. If things are going really bad, you tell everyone else and everyone comes together and tries to help problem solve what you’re going through. And I really recommend all founders out there find a network where they can be truly authentic and say what they really need to say.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, it’s so true because there’s so much pressure in a weird way on that kind of no, a little bit of fake till you make, the side of entrepreneurship or just trying to look like you got it all together. The best metaphor I can think of is you look at a swan and looks very serene. What you don’t see is the feet paddling crazy underneath the water.

Sarah Smith:

Totally, yes.

Melinda Wittstock:

And so often I think entrepreneurship is made to look easy by people who succeed. And yet, I mean it’s very hard. I mean, there’s no question about it. What about some of the hardest things? I mean you mentioned a couple, but have there been any moments where you’ve been like, “Oh my God, I don’t know how I can go on”, or, “We just got kicked in the head.”

Sarah Smith:

How much time do you have?

Melinda Wittstock:

Give me a couple of examples because one of the things we try and do on this podcast is destigmatize that because it is part of the journey, it does require a lot of resilience and you mentioned patience before, earlier on in our conversation, but it’s okay, it’s part of the program. So what are some of the ones?

Sarah Smith:

I think for me, one of the hardest things has been, it’s one thing when you’re doing all this by yourself, or in my case with my spouse or even your senior team, but when you’re doing it with a lot of employees, a lot of staff and startups, you have to pivot, you have to change, you have to read the writing on the wall and do something differently sometimes. And it’s really hard. That is hard for a lot of people. And I would say it’s easier if you are the founder or the co-founder or maybe on the executive team, but for a lot of everyone else that can be inexplicable and sometimes you can’t always explain everything that’s happening. So I don’t know if I’m being totally coherent here but [inaudible 00:16:54]

Melinda Wittstock:

I hear you because most people are not entrepreneurial. So as you grow and scale your team, maybe the founding team has definitely the entrepreneurial gene. Of course you do as the founder or co-founder, but some of the early people you hire maybe more inclined that way. But as you grow, you’re going to have a lot of employee mentality like come to work, do your thing, leave, because that’s how our schooling system has educated people. That’s what people expect or whatever. So if they suddenly have to, no, we’re not going to do that, we’re going to do this, or all that change or uncertainty can be very difficult for most people.

Sarah Smith:

Yeah, I totally think so. And I actually, I bring this up sometimes, I’ve spent about 10 years living abroad and I think that really has helped me as an entrepreneur be willing to be in situations where I don’t always have a clear understanding of what’s happening.

Melinda Wittstock:

And I completely understand because that’s the other thing is just walking through the uncertainty and making decisions with the knowledge that you have. And maybe it’s not enough, but I don’t know, I’ve just resolved that if you want therapy, become an entrepreneur.

Sarah Smith:

Totally, yeah. [inaudible 00:18:15]

Melinda Wittstock:

[inaudible 00:18:15] to learn. But how have you managed that specifically with employees that were like, “Okay, so you’re in the middle of a pivot, you got to change some stuff.” What have you learned from that? What are some management or leadership tips around that particular issue?

Sarah Smith:

I think really is something we’ve really focused on is hiring people who seem like they would thrive on that department. We have a weekly staff meeting and we call it our Dyrt campfire. And during every one of these campfires, someone presents about themselves, five minutes, five slides, five things about yourself. Because we’re a remote team so it’s a way we can all get to know each other a little bit better. And the person who did it today, his name’s Ryan, he’s been with us for four years now. And when I think of an employee who just shines, I think of him and everything we’ve thrown his way. And we’re like, “Well, this is a little different than before, are you up for it?” He’s up for it. He’s just amazing and flexible and willing to do new things. And that’s just such a treat to have someone like him on our team. So I think looking for people like that has become more and more important.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, a hundred percent. It’s funny, I was at this, I don’t know, dinner party in Hollywood and there was a big producer and I said, “What’s the hardest thing about your job?” Because I’m always asking people these sorts of things. And there was barely skipped a beat. And he said “The people.”

Sarah Smith:

Yeah, it’s also the best though, right?

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. But getting it right. So in that hiring process, you mentioned that you hire people that are going to thrive in that kind of uncertainty or fast changing, they’re up for anything. How do you qualify that in people? Because people often say these things about themselves, but it doesn’t make it true.

Sarah Smith:

Yeah, and that’s always going to be a problem. So trying to get examples of being flexible and really bringing home the point that we’re a startup and things change and really trying to accentuate that whole point during the interview process.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, a hundred percent. So what’s next for The Dyrt? We started, we were talking about the gap between where your whole vision and where you started. Has your vision changed? What’s your vision now? Where are you going?

Sarah Smith:

The vision hasn’t changed, ever, for me really but the things we’re offering has changed. So I’ve always wanted The Dyrt to be the go-to resource for camping, no matter how you camp, and to be a useful, that’s the key word, tool for people who want to go camping. So in the short term, the thing I just mentioned, The Dyrt Alerts, which will give you availability information at sold out campgrounds, that currently is a pay as you go system. We wanted to test it. Now that we’ve tested it, we’re rolling it into The Dyrt Pro. So it’ll be another of the features of The Dyrt Pro. Also just getting more and more bookable properties on The Dyrt so that users can come to our site, find the camping that they want, and then book it right here on The Dyrt without leaving. And then eventually, currently we’re just in the United States, but there are campers all over the world, and eventually we’re just global domination, I guess.

Melinda Wittstock:

So what’s the best way to get involved with Dyrt and start providing content or signing up or such?

Sarah Smith:

Yeah, they can go to thedyrt.com, which is T-H-E-D-Y-R-T.com, and sign up for an account, a totally free account. You can see all the campgrounds, you can read the reviews, you can get tons of great information that way. You can upgrade to The Dyrt Pro, $36 a year, to help us pay our staff and to also get these amazing tools that we’ve heard over the years are what campers want to have a more wonderful camping experience. And then also we’re on, we’re the top ranked app for camping in the App Store. So if you go to the App Store and just put in camping, we’ll come up at the top or you can just find us at The Dyrt in the App Store.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, Sarah, congratulations on all your progress. It’s really amazing. Very inspiring and uplifting. And thank you for putting on your wings and flying with us today.

Sarah Smith:

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It was great to chat with you.