877 Vitale Buford Hardin :

Melinda Wittstock:

Coming up on Wings of Inspired Business:

Vitale Buford Hardin:

I was a workaholic. I over identified with my work constantly. People pleasing, saying yes to everyone, had zero boundaries, and it really took over my life. And on the outside, maybe I looked, quote, perfect. I don’t even like using that word casually, but maybe just for these purposes, you know, I looked perfect, but I was really struggling inside. I remember when I started my business, I thought it had to look, you know, perfect. I wasn’t allowing myself to evolve. And it was like the universe and God were like, we’re going to put you through it so you can teach about it.

Melinda Wittstock:

Perfectionism might just be women’s’ most formidable enemy in business. Sure, we all want to be the best we can be, but perfectionism holds us back, prevents us from taking risks, innovating, growing. In fact, perfectionism is paralyzing as entrepreneur Vitale Buford Hardin learned the hard way and now helps other women in business break the cycle.

Melinda Wittstock:

Hi, I’m Melinda Wittstock and welcome to Wings of Inspired Business, where we share the inspiring entrepreneurial journeys, epiphanies, and practical advice from successful female founders … so you have everything you need at your fingertips to build the business and life of your dreams. I’m all about paying it forward as a five-time serial entrepreneur, so this podcast is all about catalyzing an ecosystem where women entrepreneurs mentor, promote, buy from, and invest in each other …Because together we’re stronger, and we all soar higher when we fly together.

Melinda Wittstock:

Today we meet an inspiring entrepreneur who overcame Adderall-fueled workaholism as a corporate leader before finding her true path as an entrepreneur helping executives and companies large and small overcome perfectionism.

Melinda Wittstock:

Vitale Buford Hardin is the CEO and Founder of the Hardin Group transform toxic perfectionism into excellence by helping entrepreneurs and executives lead with authenticity, build resilience, improve communication and emotional intelligence. She has served clients including Keeneland, Humana, NCAA, Zappos, LifePoint Health, Logan Aluminum and the University of Kentucky. A published author, nationally recognized speaker, and iPEC-certified executive coach, she brings 15 years of corporate experience to her custom trainings, strategic advisory, culture change initiatives and performance coaching. She’s also the author of Addicted to Perfect: A Journey Out of the Grips of Adderall. Vitale will be here in a moment, and first,

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Melinda Wittstock:

How do you know if you’re a perfectionist? Chances are you are your own worst critic, and that inner bully voice rarely let’s up. Likely you work relentlessly hard to prove your worth. Pretty certain you find it hard to delegate tasks to others and you might think you have to “do it all to have it all”. It may be that you spend more time planning than doing, waiting for the perfect time or circumstances to make decisions.

If you are an entrepreneur or executive and any of that describes you, you are one of 97% of leaders struggling with some form of perfectionism, and it’s holding you back in business and life.

Vitale Buford Hardin is on a mission to help leaders and corporate cultures overcome the perils of perfectionism.

Today Vitale shares her personal journey from her Adderall-fueled workaholism and the toll it took on her career and entrepreneurship, and how she now helps executives and organizations like Humana, NCAA, Zappos, LifePoint Health, Logan Aluminum and the University of Kentucky change their corporate cultures to ones of excellence, authenticity, adaptability, and resilience.

Let’s put on our wings with the inspiring Vitale Buford Hardin and be sure to download the podcast app Podopolo so we can keep the conversation going after the episode.

[INTERVIEW]

Melinda Wittstock:

Vitale, welcome to Wings.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Thank you, Melinda. I’m excited to be here.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, you know, perfectionism, I like to think of as fear dressed up in a pretty pink bow. We think it’s a great thing on a certain level, who doesn’t want to be perfect? Perfect. And yet it holds us back, doesn’t it?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yes. It holds us back from all the things that we want in life.

Melinda Wittstock:

And so, what is the impetus? Why do we feel like we need to be perfect? What’s the genesis of perfectionism?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah. So, I believe that perfectionism is this deeply rooted coping mechanism that we use to feel worthy enough. I believe that it is built in our childhood or our young adulthood. Right. So, we look to our parents or caregivers, and maybe they are telling us indirectly that we need to be perfect to be loved. Or maybe in lower school we were bullied. And so, to avoid that bullying and that feeling of unworthiness, we put up this kind of guard of perfectionism to try and feel worthy. And so, for me, it’s deeply, deeply rooted coping mechanism.

Melinda Wittstock:

I tend to think, you know, this is, this is something that comes up on this podcast all the time. Like, you know, when you talk to entrepreneurs, particularly women entrepreneurs, about what held them back.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yep.

Melinda Wittstock:

Variably, it comes down to perfectionism because they were so busy planning for the sale, they didn’t get the sale, or they’re so busy proving competence that they haven’t developed the relationships, you know, to grow in business, and that it actually ends up being a detriment. It holds us back. So, in business, explain some of the other ways in which you see perfectionism really hurting women in particular, rather than helping them. Yeah.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

You know, I think, you know, in entrepreneurship, it’s really just even. It holds us back from getting started.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

We don’t know when to make the leap. We’ve got to find the perfect time, or we’ve got to have the correct amount of savings saved up just in case, or we’ve got to have plan A, B and C lined up just in case something goes wrong. And so, it can even hold us back from, from getting started. It holds us back from being open. One of my biggest pieces of advice to entrepreneurs, when they ask me, what’s your biggest piece of advice? And my biggest piece of advice is allowing yourself to evolve. The business you start with is not the business you end with, that’s for sure.

Melinda Wittstock:

More than, you know, to me. I mean, this is the fifth business now, but, yeah, a series of pivots. Because nothing’s ever perfect. Everything’s always changing. Like, you’re always, like, experimenting. I mean, you know what I mean? So, like, if you think that you need to be perfect, you’re holding yourself to a standard that’s unattainable, right.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

And then oftentimes, too, like, in my case, I remember when I started my business, a, I thought it had to look, you know, perfect. I wasn’t allowing myself to evolve. I needed, you know, step, all the steps to be in perfect alignment. But I also hired all these coaches to tell me who I was instead of listening to myself, right. And it was like the universe and God were like, we’re going to put you through it so you can teach about it. So that’s always the way.

Melinda Wittstock:

You know, so many of the best businesses, in fact, probably all of them, in the end, are formed by people who have gone through a lived experience of some kind and master it and then. So, they can help others with the same thing. Yeah. So that’s your journey. You were a perfectionist.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Most definitely. So, my journey, my perfectionism is deeply, deeply rooted. I even was an Adderall addict for ten years because of my perfectionism.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh, my goodness.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

From age 21 to 31. My senior year of college till 31 years old, I was climbing the corporate ladder, addicted to Adderall. No one knew. And it was because I thought Adderall allowed me to be extremely thin without trying. It allowed me to work these 28 hours workdays. I was achieving, achieving. My team was growing, my salary was increasing. And then nearly ten years ago, I was like, I can’t live this way anymore.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

And so, I have been to the extremes of perfectionism so I can help people unlearn it in themselves.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right? So that sort of started in college, right. You know, and all the pressure that I think a lot of students feel to get, you know, perfect grades, you know, excel, excel, excel. And then it just sets you up. So, you become an addict to Adderall. Tell me a little bit about what was going on in your life at the time. I mean, you said 28 hours. Like, you know, it’s not. There’s not 28 hours a day.

Melinda Wittstock:

But, like, so you were. You were not sleeping? You like, what was going on?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

I mean, I was sleeping, but minimal. You know, I was working seven days a week. I was getting all of my worth outside of myself, right? So, getting people’s approval from, you know, within the company that I was working at, all of my approval was coming from my work.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

I was a workaholic. I over identified with my work constantly. People pleasing, saying yes to everyone, had zero boundaries, and it really took over my life. And on the outside, maybe I looked, quote, perfect. I don’t even like using that word casually, but maybe just for these purposes, you know, I looked perfect, but I was really struggling inside.

Melinda Wittstock:

You wonder how many women in particular walk around like this. Like, you know, like, you know, perfect body, perfect kind of house. They’ve got, like, everything. Their happiness is, in effect, like you said, external to them, except that’s not really where happiness or fulfillment comes from. So, in that moment that you had that epiphany, like, oh, my God, I can’t go on. Was there something that happened, like health or something like that? Or what was the moment where you’re like, okay, this has to stop. This isn’t working for me.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

I also grew up in an environment with an alcoholic mother. And so, because of that, I was constantly trying to people please and make her happy and control my environment. And so that was a piece of leading to my Adderall addiction and the perfectionism, really being born at a young, young age. But what happened was this executive coach that I had hired, he told me this quote that changed my life. And it is, I see in you what I refuse to see in me. And my mother was at my house visiting, and I got home from work, and she had been drinking, and I got so upset with her. I’m like, you know, you’re just visiting me for a few days.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Can you not stay sober? Like, what? You know, like, just really angry. And then all of a sudden, that quote popped into my head. Right. I see in you what I refuse to see in me. And at that moment, I recognized, oh, my God, I’m asking my mother to get sober, yet I’m refusing to.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. Well, we often do repeat, in a way, like, I mean, it’s so interesting. I mean, children of alcoholics. My father was an alcoholic.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

And how you cope. There was a great book, adult children of alcoholics, and, like, is it one of the things.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

You want to control a kind of chaotic environment, and a lot of entrepreneurs who are essentially set out to control their environment. I mean, we set out to change the world in a way. Right. Like, we’re going to, you know, make this big dent, you know, in the universe or whatever, and that’s kind of a. There’s a lot of control in that. And. And the lesson for me over the years has been, like, you can’t control everything. Like, no, like, you need to be flexible and.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, like you said, open.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right, right. For sure.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s so interesting. So, at that moment, is that what, like, you obviously left corporate and started your own business? Was that the impetus for your entrepreneurship as well?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

So, pursuing the perfectionism piece? It most definitely was. I didn’t leave corporate America for several more years, but that was a moment that, you know, obviously changed my life dramatically. And then I just started doing a lot of research around perfectionism and started creating content around it, and then eventually left corporate America and have been able to put a lot of things, obviously, into practice that I teach personally. But also helping people both within corporate America and outside corporate America and entrepreneurship space really thrive by releasing their perfectionism.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, 100%. I mean, you were saying. There was a study that showed that 85% of workplaces have cultures of perfectionism. So how does that manifest? Talk about the corporate world, and then we can talk about entrepreneur world. But, like, what are the main things that, you know, say you’re in a perfectionist environment.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah. So, in a. In a perfectionist environment, right. There’s a lack of work life boundaries. I don’t like work life balance, but there’s a lack of work life boundaries. Right. So maybe the leader of the team is like, hey, I really want you all to check out of work, you know, after 07:00 p.m. But then this person is sending emails at 09:00 p.m.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right. I’m telling you that I’m promoting work life boundaries, but I’m sending emails to you at 09:00 p.m. That’s perfectionism. People aren’t delegating in the workplace because they don’t trust others, right. To do the job as good as them. And so when we’re not delegating, we actually hold people’s growth back, ourselves and others. We are having critical feedback conversations and crucial conversations, because with perfectionism, obviously, we can’t control other people, so we just avoid conversations. Oh, it’ll resolve itself.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

It’ll figure itself out. Well, read an email 20 times before sending it. When really prove it twice and move on, right. So, it shows up in little moments, and it shows up in big moments, and it really impacts the workplace. Right. Unrealistic timelines, unrealistic deadlines, the pressure that we put on people. We’re thinking that everything, every final work product needs to be 100%. Not everything needs to be 100%.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Some stuff can be 85%.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, 100%. I mean, this is so interesting that I found just in entrepreneurship, where I’ve learned over the years to co create with our customers. Like, there was a great quote that influenced me that if you’re proud of your product, you’ve launched too late. And that, and that was like, really, that made me really think, like, well, you’re not giving your customers the opportunity to give you feedback or to improve the product. So. So, you know, I mean, every, like, if you look at, say, I don’t know, Facebook at the very beginning compared to it now or any of these things, or, like, the, I like, like the, another coach of mine years ago where I was battling perfectionism in a startup that I was doing way, way, way back, and she said, hey, so, Melinda, do you remember the first time you got a mobile phone? Right. You know, and I was, you know, it was like the flip phone era.

Melinda Wittstock:

You know, how did that make you feel? Oh, it was amazing. Like, oh, it’s great. It was such a cool thing, you know, and then she paused for a bit, and she said, now, was it the iPhone?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, in other words, like, your own product is going to evolve. Like, and it’s going to get better for being able to interact with your customers. So, if you spend all this time perfecting it, you may perfect it in a way that your customers don’t even like.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right. And the biggest, like, my rule of thinking and what I live by that has helped me overcome my perfectionism in my business the most is you can’t miss out on what’s meant for you.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, that’s also true. Like, while we’re on quotes, you know, it’s kind of like you don’t want to make God laugh, tell him your plans. And so, the sort of flexibility and resilience you need with entrepreneurship, it’s sort of like you get to the point where you have to accept that change is inevitable. There are all these things behind control, and it’s kind of that sort of flexibility and curiosity and just constant evolution that you need. But if you’re holding yourself to an impossible standard as a leader of an organization, that’s going to infect. We were talking about corporate workplaces. Even in an entrepreneurial workplace, you’re going to infect the whole team with that.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right, exactly.

Melinda Wittstock:

And then it slows you down. So, you started your business, you’re sort of like a recovering perfectionist. There should be an AA for perfectionists.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

I know.

Melinda Wittstock:

And so, you’re going through that, and then you launch your business. Did you still have vestiges of your perfectionism as you launched your business?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Oh, 100%. I mean, you know, I was a single mother with no savings when I left corporate America, so I don’t know if I recommend people doing that. But I took the lead because, again, there’s no perfect time. So overcame the perfectionism with just starting the business. But when I started my business, I was actually a life coach, and it was because these coaches that I had hired were also kind of life coaches and online coaches and did all these online coaching programs, and I was having to sell myself a lot on social media, and it was sucking my soul, Melinda. I mean, just, it wasn’t in alignment. And then finally, in 2020, literally, God spoke to me and was like, the universe. And they were like, you’re supposed to be doing what you’re doing in the perfectionism space. But for corporate America, this, like, life coaching stuff is not for you. And I was like, oh. Which was such a aha. Moment for me because I was like, oh, of course. Like, my background is in corporate America, and so now everything is in much more alignment. But I had to go through that pain of trying to launch a business that wasn’t in alignment with who I was for two years before finding what was right for me.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, that often happens. You know, we do the thing that we think we should do, or we look at role models and think, okay, that’s the path. So, I’ve got to do it that way when in actual fact, you know, the path is your own path. So, you have this epiphany, and you started doing this in corporate America, and so you’ve had a lot of big clients. I mean, you know, Zappos and Humana, NCAA, you know, a lot of different folks. How did you get going in that? What was your first step? To start, you know, helping corporate America overcome the perfectionist culture?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah. So, you know, perfectionism, the concept of it, the idea of it is not new, but the fact that it is a major problem, that it is a core issue in the workplace, is newish, and it’s not as, like, shiny and exciting as teaching people to have crucial conversations or, you know, just the normal, like an emotional intelligence assessment and all of those things. So, for me, it required a lot of education, and I believe deeply that perfectionism is a core issue. And so, I’m going to do whatever it takes, you know, to get the word out, to change people’s lives, to change workplaces. And so first it was, you know, I hired a research firm in northern Colorado to do national research for me on the. On the impact of perfectionism in the workplace, because I wanted data. There wasn’t any data out there like it, and so I needed my own data to say, no, here are the facts. It really is an issue.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

And so, I used that to prove my point. And it was just, you know, smaller programs that led into bigger programs. And, you know, again, as, you know, being an entrepreneur, being okay with no and doing things that are reduced fee just because you’re like, I need the experience. And also, I know that this is going to grow and turn into something big.

[PROMO CREDIT]

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Melinda Wittstock:

And we’re back with Vitale Buford Hardin, executive coach, CEO and Founder of the Hardin Group, and author of Addicted to Perfect: A Journey Out of the Grips of Adderall.

[INTERVIEW CONTINUES]

Melinda Wittstock:

So, tell me about your process. So, you go into, say, a corporate culture, walk us through what you do. Yeah.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

Such an engagement.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

So, for me, there’s different ways. My favorite way to work with a company is to really dig deep. And so, the first step would be a discovery phase. And so, based on the size of the organization, I would interview a certain number of leaders, different tenures, different, you know, departments, titles, people leaders, individual contributors. I would interview a cohort of leaders on a variety of things happening within the organization, and then I would use that data along with reviewing the organization. Strategic assets. Right. Onboarding documents, your employee handbook, communication plans, all those things, engagement surveys.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Between my interviews, and then all those strategic assets I come up with, here are my findings, and here’s what I think you need to do in terms of priorities, because I do things obviously outside of perfectionism. I do a lot of just corporate culture change in general. And then, obviously, there’s pieces of it that involve, you know, culture change. And then there’s. There are pieces of it. There are two tracks, right? The culture change piece and then the people change piece. And you’ve got to kind of both things going at the same time. And so different initiatives for the culture change piece, you start looking at the different cultural norms that exist within organization, and you’re going to be working with the higher kind of executive team on those to figure out what needs to be changed.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Is perfectionism getting in the way? What’s helping us? How do we increase the capacity of our workforce so that they’re performing at a higher level? You know, what is our performance management system? Is it effective? Are people ready? Our internal talent pipeline? So, a lot of things with that then in terms of just training, like the people change piece, it’s ongoing training programs, because a lot of things that companies do is they’ll bring in a consultant to do, like a one-day training, and that’s it. And true change doesn’t happen from a one-day training, just doesn’t. Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, you’re almost embedded in there. And so, for how long? I mean because it seems like it’s a big hill to climb. Right.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

Especially in a big corporation.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah. So, with one of my organizations this year would be year three. So, you know, and then there’s some organizations that really don’t. That aren’t ready to do the deep work. They’re like, no, we, you know, just want to do the two-day workshop, which isn’t my favorite thing to do because it’s not that sustainable change, but at least it’s some different messaging and training, and so I’ll do that as well.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. So, you know, it’s so interesting because these big corporations, and there’s so much to change, like just the old command and control and the way businesses were very much developed, almost using a book like the Art of War.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

It’s a…

Melinda Wittstock:

Very masculine kind of paradigm that’s really changing because it’s just not really working. So, like, having workplaces that are much more about, you know, the team members, the employees, feeling seen and heard, empowered, you know, a lot more dialogue, a lot, a lot of different things. And that that shift is really happening. The younger generations are just demanding it, but it requires so much internal change. You must encounter a lot of resistance and in those. Right. From certain individuals or whatnot. And how do you get around that? Like, that, just real inner mindset work that has to happen.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah. Because, you know, a lot of the work is creating an environment of psychological safety and trust. Right. Because you can’t have a culture of perfectionism and have a culture of belonging and psychological safety and trust.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

And research shows that the number one indicator of a high-performance team is psychological safety. Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, they’re more likely to share ideas because, like, there’s, you know, in an entrepreneurship, there’s no such thing as a stupid idea kind of thing. Right. Although you can say that as the founder and the CEO or the executive team, it doesn’t necessarily mean that your employees are going to feel that way. Condition not to.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, all their other experiences.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah. And so, with the deeper work, it’s, you know, honestly, it’s being patient. It’s little by little and when it comes to, like, the people change work, like, there are always people in my trainings that are going to be triggered because this perfectionism stuff runs deep. And so sometimes people are going to shut down and internalize it versus being open to change. And you have to allow people to be where they are.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right. Sometimes the content’s going to hit them six months later when they’re at Chick fil A, you know, randomly on a Saturday. Some people are going to be able to absorb the information in real time and do something with it. And so, it’s also just allowing people to be where they are.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right, right. I think so much of it is about self-acceptance. Like, you’re enough.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right, right. Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

And that’s, that’s really hard. That’s really hard, especially for women, because we’ve been told by society in many, many ways how we’re not enough. Like, whole industries dedicated to telling us we need to be this, more like this, more like that. More like this. You know, I think of the big dialogue in the Barbie movie about all the things we’re supposed to be.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right. Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

In these impossible standards. So just getting to the place where you can find self-acceptance is almost like a life journey.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

It feels at 100% is a life journey, and it just shows up in so many different ways. You know, for me, I’m in a space where, you know, my, my pricing of my services matches my self-worth. Well, it always matches your self-worth, but my self-worth, universal, I think.

Melinda Wittstock:

Because I think so many women start by, like, trying to discount or like, I know you’re very afraid of having high prices, you know?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right. What are, some are going to think of me? They’re think I’m greedy, you know, am I really? Is it worth this? And, and so for me, like, in my, where I am in my growth, I was actually celebrating that last week. I was like, gosh, I feel like I’m in a really good place where I’m, you know, I’m like, no, this is what it costs to work with me. I know the results I get and, you know, this is it.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. And if it’s not the right, you know, alignment, it’s. Yeah, I mean, this is, this is a lesson that’s taken me. I wish I could have learned that one faster, but I’m in a similar place. Do you know what I mean? When you know the value you’re bringing and I mean, this is interesting because it gets into things like the, you know, the value based sale where you can really show, like, what the actual impact would be in terms of, like, more money made by a company, you know, with more, you know, productivity, more innovation, whatnot. But also, the money saved an employee attrition, or, like, I mean, there’s a whole bunch of different metrics, I guess, right, that you can actually measure that and when it really impacts the bottom line in a significant way, and then you look at what you’re charging relative to the upside that that company is going to get as a result.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

Suddenly. Okay, that’s a different way to understand your pricing and understand your own value of what you’re bringing to the table.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right, exactly.

Melinda Wittstock:

I think men kind of intuitively understand that better just because their value has never been questioned.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah, well, it’s interesting because my research shows that men struggle with perfectionism more than women.

Melinda Wittstock:

Do they really? That’s interesting. How does it manifest for them?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

It just shows up differently. Now, they’re not much higher in all the questions and all the research, but they’re higher. And so, like, let’s take imposter syndrome, right? Major symptom of perfectionism for men. And this is, generally speaking, for men. I believe that imposter syndrome can show up as overconfidence, whereas women, it shows up as under confidence.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s interesting. So, the men compensate, right?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

They’ll go in and ask for the salary that they think they deserve. You know, like, no, I think I should get a 20% increase. Whereas with women, it’s like, well, maybe I should get this. And, you know, like different words that we use around it manifest differently.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right? Yeah. So that’s a really interesting thing, because men, I think sometimes that are, if they’re going through this, they can be more easily threatened by somebody else’s idea. If they come in with imposter syndrome, they’re going to be more likely to constrain someone else that they feel shown.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Up by, say, right, that competition and that need to win. And the scarcity mentality that comes with.

Melinda Wittstock:

Perfectionism, that’s interesting, actually, that correlation. Because when we’re in scarcity thinking, that’s a very fear based. Like, it’s kind of like zero sum game. Like, if someone else is doing well, then I can’t.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s just toxic, right? Like, trying to shift into a more abundance. Like, everybody can win, right?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

And so, yes, scarcity thinking and perfectionist thinking go hand in hand.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, they really do. What do you think is the difference between mastery and perfection? Like, I like to shift because there’s nothing wrong with being really great at what you do, but that, to me, is mastery. That’s different.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

It’s really the reason behind it. Like, is it coming from fear or is it coming from love? Meaning, mastery is I want to get better at what I want to do because I want to make a bigger impact.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

I want to prove my product. I want to make real change, whereas perfectionism is I’ve got to get better because I got to be the best. And if I’m not the best, then I’m not good enough.

Melinda Wittstock:

Exactly. Right. And so, if you have a culture of mastery, you’re all of a sudden now aligned around more of a mission, more around shared value, more around, like, we’re in this to help people solve their problem, which is like the core of entrepreneurship, really. I mean, you’re innovating because you spot a problem, and you want to solve it.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right. And it’s more of a learning culture, an innovation culture, a growth. Right. Perfectionism. With perfectionism, we personalize feedback. Right. We’re not open to that. There’s less innovation because we have a fear of failure.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Whereas with mastery, it’s, you know, it’s. You’re okay with being wrong. You’re curious. You’re open.

Melinda Wittstock:

And so, when you look at leadership teams, whether it’s the corporate executive team and the CEO of a company, or in the case of a, you know, a startup or an emerging growth company and a founding team, anyone in a leadership position, what is the behavior that the leaders need to exhibit to create that safety for others? Like, does it really start at the top? Like, if you have leaders that are not. That are. That are being perfectionists themselves? Right?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s impossible to change the actual organization.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right. And that’s one of the biggest questions I get is when I’m doing these trainings, they’re like, yeah, okay, so I’m going to change my perfectionism. It just stresses the importance of, you know, everyone within the organization has to learn, has to learn this, because if we’re working, if we’re changing our perfectionism and we, we report to a perfectionist, it requires boundary setting, expectation setting. You know, like you, we teach people how to treat us. And so, as a perfectionist, we probably had no boundaries. We probably said yes to everybody. We were probably willing to answer emails at 08:00 p.m.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

You know, go above and beyond. And if we’re over, and then if we’re, you know, now stepping into the lane of excellence over perfectionism, then we have to reteach someone how to work with us and where our boundaries are. And that can be really scary. Right. It requires crucial conversations, but really the beginning, Melinda, is everyone understanding first how it shows up within themselves? Right. Because who we are is how we lead. And so, people have to first be able to recognize, like, how the perfectionism is showing up in themselves and how that reflects in their leadership style. And so, when they can do that, then so many of the other dominoes and changes start taking place.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, when it comes to entrepreneurship, though, especially for companies that have investors. Right, and you have these milestones, and you have these expectations of these milestones you have to hit.

Melinda Wittstock:

And there’s a sense of, like, not just a sense of, there is pressure to hit those because you’re being judged on that basis. And with a startup, it really is like all hands-on deck. Do you know what I mean? Like, yes. Right. And like, you’re trying to seize a market, you’re trying to get, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so how do you find that balance there? Because the pressure is going can be such that in your culture, just at the very beginning of just what you have to do as a startup to succeed is kind of herculean. Right.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

So how do you get this right.

Melinda Wittstock:

From the get-go with those sorts of headwinds?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah, I think, you know, when it comes to that, it’s also probably surrounding yourself with people that you’re able. That you’re able that are able to say, hey, you took all the right steps and maybe you didn’t hit this milestone, but you did all of the right things. So even having people around you that can help calm your perfectionism, that you can advise with, I think is really, really important. Because oftentimes we need someone to say, like, no, you did all the right things and the goal wasn’t met, and you’re going to have to let it go.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. Right.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

I know that sounds much easier than actually. It sounds much easier than it actually is. But there has to be someone has to be your mirror, because what happens then is, you know, the volume on your perfectionism is turned way up. The criticism of yourself and then your team members for not hitting x milestones becomes, you know, unruly. And the. You’re just out of touch with reality in terms of your effort versus the result.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. And so that really gets into kind of people and process and people understanding what the goal is and what their particular individual contribution is to that overarching goal. And you mentioned a little bit earlier in our conversation, like, just really good communication and conversations. And often people are going so fast, they don’t have those conversations. And sometimes team members don’t even kind of know why they’re doing something or why it matters or, you know, how they’ll even be evaluated.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right. And so, you’ve got to be extremely clear. I mean, I would say that people probably leave performance reviews not even knowing the severity of the need for their performance to be improved. Right. Because oftentimes we talk around the issue, we don’t talk through it.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

So, the need for clarity in terms of this is the lane that you are owning. These are the benchmarks, these are the deadlines making sure that person’s understanding, because when things are moving a million miles an hour, that clear communication and expectation setting and check ins and one on ones, they fall by the wayside, but they are critical.

Melinda Wittstock:

They really are. So, it’s almost like slowing down to move faster.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

And just this all comes down to, and this is a theme of this podcast, is conscious leadership. Like where you’re in the present moment and you have that awareness, but that’s a really, you know, that’s, you know, that’s a. Sorry, I’m just going to say, you know, that’s the kind of thing that people. People can take years to get to that place. Like, it becomes almost a spiritual endeavor. I’ve found.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Oh, 100%. Like, that is not something that happens overnight. You have to truly experience it. I 100% agree with that. But it’s those really, really difficult conversations, I believe can be avoided if you’re having the accountability conversations early and often.

Melinda Wittstock:

So many things like that to get right, you know, from the very beginning and, and not being perfectionist, forgiving yourself, I guess, if you haven’t got them right, because it’s just always going to be evolving. Yeah.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

And your ability to just kind of get back on track. Right. We’re not, we’re not perfect. We’re going to misstep. We’re going to say the wrong thing, but it’s our ability to, to shift quickly.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. So, for anybody listening to this show that really needs help with perfectionism, I know you don’t do this, and you do this for corporates now, but what’s the best way? I imagine you have resources and things like that that people can check out.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah. There’s, you know, you can look on my website. I’ve got a quiz around perfectionism. There’s probably some, some videos of workshops that I’ve done on YouTube that you could google that talks about and how you overcome it. I know those resources are out there. I have my memoir on Amazon, which is my story of how I overcame it myself. But, you know, any of those resources can be helpful.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. And if you are listening and you do work for a corporation or run a corporation or whatever, what’s the best way kind of to hire you and what does that, and what does that entail?

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Yeah. So, yeah, just reaching out my email, my contact information are on my website, which is the Harding group co. So, dot co not.com, and really just talking about how perfectionism is showing up. So, it probably start with the discovery conversation and just seeing if, you know, our needs were aligned. But, yeah, if you hear this and you’re like, wow, I think, you know, my organization is struggling with perfectionism. Our innovation is low, our productivity is low. People have a real fear of failure and fear of making mistakes. Mistakes.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

When you can solve this core root issue, so many other things fall into place. It’s a really powerful shift that an organization can make.

Melinda Wittstock:

Wonderful. Well, Vitale, thank you so much for putting on your wings and flying with us today.

Vitale Buford Hardin:

Thank you, Melinda, for having me.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Melinda Wittstock:

Vitale Buford Hardin is the founder and CEO of the Hardin Group, and author of Addicted to Perfect: A Journey Out of the Grips of Adderall.

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