954 Wendy Bronfein:

Wings of Inspired Business Podcast EP 954—Host Melinda Wittstock Interviews Wendy Bronfein

Melinda Wittstock:

Coming up on Wings of Inspired Business:

Wendy Bronfein:

Our biggest hurdle is really that Schedule 1 status. I believed that more and more states would pass legislation and they would reach a critical mass where the federal government would say, okay, this sort of state-by-state experiment is sort of proven out enough for us and we’re going to shift things on a federal level. And it hasn’t happened. And that’s created a very ever-growing kind of tense environment because we don’t have the normal economic tools that every other industry in the United States has. We’re taxed from a corporate perspective on an insanely high level because we’re Schedule 1. We don’t have access to capital in traditional venues. You can’t have traditional banking in most instances; you can’t take credit cards at retail.

Melinda Wittstock:

Scaling a business is never easy, even without the headwinds that continue to buffet the U.S. cannabis industry. But that hasn’t stopped Wendy Bronfein from tackling the medical marijuana opportunity as the co-founder of Curio Wellness. Wendy grew up learning the intricacies of regulated healthcare as she watched her parents grow a pharmaceutical retail and distribution business serving long-term care facilities. Then after a successful career in TV branding and marketing, she returned home to Maryland to lend her expertise to the emerging medical marijuana business.

Melinda Wittstock:

Hi, I’m Melinda Wittstock and welcome to Wings of Inspired Business, where we share the inspiring entrepreneurial journeys, epiphanies, and practical advice from successful female founders … so you have everything you need at your fingertips to build the business and life of your dreams. I’m all about paying it forward as a five-time serial entrepreneur, so I started this podcast to catalyze an ecosystem where women entrepreneurs mentor, promote, buy from, and invest in each other. Because together we’re stronger, and we all soar higher when we fly together and lift as we climb.

Melinda Wittstock:

Today we meet an inspiring entrepreneur who left a lucrative career in television spanning LIVE! With Kelly & Michael, BBC Worldwide Americas The Andy Milonakis Show, Wanda Does it, and The Sharon Osbourne Show to leap into the challenging medical marijuana space, co-founding Curio Wellness with her dad and leveraging her family’s success in pharmaceutical distribution. Wendy Bronfein shares her fascinating entrepreneurial journey, and the many challenges scaling a business in a complex, stigmatized industry. Today we cut through the noise and misconceptions surrounding cannabis, outdated policies, federal regulations, and the unique hurdles when it comes to cannabis marketing and research. Wendy also discusses how Curio is supporting underrepresented communities through franchise opportunities, the critical importance of research, and what it will take for the industry (and her business) to thrive on a national scale.

Melinda Wittstock:

Wendy will be here in a moment, and first: 

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Melinda Wittstock:

The recreational and medical use of marijuana is legal in 24 U.S. states, three territories and Washington D.C. but federally, it remains a Schedule 1 drug alongside heroin, even though drugs like cocaine are only Schedule 2.  The cannabis classification seems nonsensical to most of the population, let alone those in the medical profession who witness its many therapeutic benefits. 

Melinda Wittstock:

Today Wendy Bronfein, co-founder of Curio Wellness, breaks down the challenges—from research to marketing and distribution—and shares what it has taken to scale the company’s products. Wendy shares her innovative approach to marketing, with high-touch IRL experiential strategies that build community and generate trust, plus how Curio Wellness is taking bold steps to offer franchise opportunities specifically designed to help women, minorities, and disabled veterans break into the cannabis business—helping others navigate regulatory and financial barriers by supporting their capital needs and providing operational guidance.

Melinda Wittstock:

Let’s put on our wings with the inspiring Wendy Bronfein.

[INTERVIEW]

Melinda Wittstock:

Wendy, welcome to Wings.

Wendy Bronfein:

Hello. Thank you for having me.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, there’s lots of leaps from television, but from television into cannabis, maybe there’s a very logical connection there. Tell me, what was the inspiration that led you to co-found Curio Wellness?

Wendy Bronfein:

I’m from the state of Maryland. I was living in New York when we sort of started this as a nights and weekends project. But on the television side, I was in the branding and marketing part of the business. My family, my parents had a business when I was growing up that was in pharmaceutical, retail and distribution to like long term care facilities. So, I was kind of familiar with a regulated health care space, and Maryland was introducing the idea of a medical cannabis program in the state. And so that sort of sparked me on. I love the idea of building a brand. I was very comfortable and interested in the category and I knew that my dad was coming could come to this from the perspective of regulated health care and decades of experience there and also as a seasoned entrepreneur.

Wendy Bronfein:

And when I told him about a news item, I saw, not really thinking at that moment that that was going to be the spark, but it, it did end up becoming the spark to our due diligence of do we want to look into this? Do we want to apply? And that led us to where we are today.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, you have this spark that this is going to be a really growing industry. And it was a growing industry, but it’s had all kinds of hiccups and issues and challenges along the way. You know, when you think of from when you started to where you are now, how many of those challenges did you anticipate would have been some of the biggest ones?

Wendy Bronfein:

Well, it’s funny because we joke around the office a lot about this like, like book we’re going to write, like things you could not believe because of just all the nutty experiences we’ve had that I think many of us who had jobs in, in sort of mainstream sectors were like, never did I encounter this type of thing. But we, you know, I think our biggest hurdle is really that Schedule 1 status. And when I went to a conference in 2014 to sort of start this due diligence process for us, this, the speakers on a panel around policy spoke to the fact that their industry believed that more and more states would pass legislation and they would reach a critical mass where the federal government would say, okay, this sort of state by state experiment is sort of proven out enough for us and we’re going to shift things on a federal level. And I think the industry thought that was all going to happen probably somewhere around five or so years ago and it hasn’t happened. And that’s created a very ever-growing kind of tense environment because we don’t have the normal economic tools that every other industry in the United States has. We’re taxed from a corporate perspective on an insanely high level because we’re Schedule 1. We don’t have access to capital in traditional venues. You can’t have traditional banking in most instances; you can’t take credit cards at retail.

Wendy Bronfein:

So, you know, those are constraints that everyone’s lived in for decades now. But it’s really a tipping point of, you know, change is necessary to, to able the businesses to be able to function more normally the way mainstream American businesses do.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, it seems so crazy to me from a public policy perspective that you have states where marijuana is legal, right. For whether medical use or just recreational use, and yet you have this different federal structure and it’s like so confusing. It doesn’t make, make any sense. And you think of all the incentives are so misaligned and like, I don’t know, just at that policy level, what’s it going to take to, to change that and make that right so your business and businesses like yours can actually prosper?

Wendy Bronfein:

Yes. So, the, the hot topic is a schedule change. So, so we sit in under Schedule 1 right now, which, you know, most recently fentanyl was moved to Schedule 1. So, yeah, they’re really not on the same level at all. I think years of stigmatizing and, and kind of being put onto Schedule 1 for the wrong reasons under the Nixon Administration kind of got us here. But if, if cannabis is downgraded or as we see it ideally de-scheduled because it doesn’t need to be on the schedule at all, it then I think that starts to open up the conversation because there’s a bit of a chicken in the egg. So, you can’t do critical research that can debunk many things or many myths.

Wendy Bronfein:

I should say under the Schedule 1 status, it’s very hard to do that. So, a lot of what is shared people perceive as, quote, anecdotal because of the constraints around sort of traditional scientific research and how it’s done. And then we have, you know, there’s, there are other countries where things are done from a research perspective. But you know, it’s hit or miss as to whether Americans want to sort of absorb that knowledge or think that knowledge that we create ourselves is better, but we can’t necessarily create that knowledge today. So, I think if you can, if you can, de-schedule is ideal. I think a lot of people are hoping for a move to Schedule three that will change the dynamics and how the plant is perceived. And I think some people feel that from a congressional standpoint, the Schedule 1 is a barrier to action by certain members of Congress. And if you can at least downgrade the schedule, it opens up the door for more fulsome conversations.

Wendy Bronfein:

But I think when you look at the states that have programs, you know, you don’t have sort of severe issues going on around this plant. And you really have a lot of basically middle aged and older people who are just trying to feel better and improve quality of life, whether it’s adult use or medical.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. So, who’s benefiting from it remaining Schedule 1? 

Wendy Bronfein:

You know, I’m not sure that it benefits anyone. I think it just benefits the, the sort of, those who have demonized it and their narrative. Whether it’s medical or adult use, you see reductions in opioids because there’s other ways to deal with pain management and pain related issues and a tool to help migrate people off of opioids as well. There’s lots of documentation of that. You see decreased use among teens and kind of what I guess they would call underage use in states that have long established markets when there’s adult use and even potentially medical. In Maryland we don’t have tax for medical, but some states do. You see, you know, cat revenue for the state that wouldn’t otherwise be there, that comes through the sale of the product.

Wendy Bronfein:

And then because it’s like this wholly American business where everything, at least on today at a state level, is constrained inside that state that you operate. I mean, you have just all these small businesses and all these entrepreneurs who have come along and also the secondary businesses that support them. Because over the years we’ve gotten more and more access to sort of traditional vendors and services. But early on it was very hard. I mean, there’s certain types of technology that we have that’s literally been developed for use in our facilities because it doesn’t exist and, or other producers of that type of machinery won’t engage with our industry. So, people had to create them. There’s a huge economic flow off of it. And I think you have, and you have a huge win for people from quality of life.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, the reason I asked the question was like, nobody’s winning from this, so why so hard to change the law? Like, I mean you would think that any pot, any national politician like who ran for president in 2028 saying, I’m going to do this right there would be like a vote winner. I don’t get it.

Wendy Bronfein:

It’s like stale data and a stale mindset for those who are stuck on it being a negative. I mean, there was a group who did some political research just this past year specifically looking at the members of Republican Party given the change in administration and showed an overwhelming approval rating for elements of access to the plan, for businesses to have access to banking, for different ways to see a legalization model come through. The behaviors of the federal government are definitely not in step with where the citizenry is and whether you’re on either side of the aisle politically, there’s just an overwhelming support. 

Wendy Bronfein:

I really think people need to understand that’s not really an issue of support at all. Adult use has some nuance to it, but even there you still have majority of people showing an interest in that topic. And it is an interest into the access and the economics that it can bring.

Melinda Wittstock:

You’re a branding expert, right? So, like everything that you learned in television around branding and marketing and whatnot, what have been some of the challenges in terms of building curio wellness to get around those things? And succeed?

Wendy Bronfein:

Yes. Well, luckily when we started, we started in the state of Maryland, and it was a medical program at that time. We did actually have a fairly fluid way to advertise and help the medical community connect with our brand. And I had actually done a lot of lobbying when advertising came up because there were different ways that the regulators wanted to try and constrain. And one of my main talking points, as I had tried to kind of look into the advertising when we weren’t constrained in any way and found that there were plenty of outlets that weren’t going to take us, right? Traditional television wasn’t going to take us. Traditional radio, like if you had a, if you had a independently owned station, then maybe that’s a pathway. But if you’re owned by a larger conglomerate, it all ladders back up to this schedule. One thing.

Wendy Bronfein:

So, my feedback to the regulators was, you don’t have to police this. They’re policing themselves. Right? We have, you know, a lot of local magazines and local papers and stuff. Interestingly, you know, print doesn’t have a fall off and ad buys and it was like, hey, we’ll buy your ads. Nobody else will take us. So, you know, there was definitely kind of a creative thought around who you’re going to and how you’re getting that message out. There was also like a lot of a ground game and there still is, right? Like really kind of getting in front of people in community settings and talking to them and explaining how programs work, what the products are, how the products can be beneficial, what the process is to shop, what you can expect. So, and then again, like there’s a language in our industry called popups, where there’s also a lot of that happening literally at the retail where your brand is on site connecting with customers and patients as they’re in the store.

Wendy Bronfein:

So, it can be way more hand to hand. And I think one of the things we’ve seen over the years is that, and it’s particularly obvious when you’ve been in the space for a while and someone comes into the team or you hire a new agency and you want, and they, they are coming from what I would call, quote, the real world. And they want to apply all the logic that holds for branding and marketing in that space. And there are like nine times out of ten you throw something like that at this category and it’s like you’re on another planet. It’s a very funny sort of obstacle that comes up. But it has consistently come up over the years. So, it really is much more of a high touch marketing environment with the consumer.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, very interesting. I wonder how you see this evolving in a way like you mentioned before that, you know, the cannabis industry had to create a lot of its own technical infrastructure, its own systems. Right?  I imagine led to a lot of innovation and specialized companies and whatnot. But when you look at the whole ecosystem and where the gaps are, are, and what has to happen, like assuming, you know, it was, it was de-scheduled or taken down a schedule three or whatever, what are some of the things that you would see happening in the industry right away and what would be the kind of, you know, boom around that and how would that affect Curio specifically? What would you be able to do that you can’t do now that you would want to do? A lot of questions there. Sorry.

Wendy Bronfein:

So, I think in general, if you see schedule shift, you will see a reinvigoration of capital into the market. And then if that, if the schedule change leaves the industry in a play in a place where that still remains like a private access. Right. No institutional money or anything like that, I think that has a resurgence because that has fallen off significantly in the past five years with kind of Congress not making any moves. Every time the topic came up, and people sort of saying this is not going to go anywhere so I’m backing off.

Wendy Bronfein:

If you can get institutional dollars, I think then that’s, that’s obviously a game changer. And I think you also would end up seeing sort of adjacent industries start to make moves on acquiring established brands. So, we often talk about pharma, alcohol and tobacco kind of being groups on the sidelines where if there wasn’t a Schedule 1 status to us, how would they relate to our business and what levels of interest would they have? Because there’s a lot of crossover. In this past year, there’s been a huge amount of discussion around the decline of alcohol sales and consumption. And in markets where cannabis is, it’s often heavily blamed for that issue. So, the influx of capital is a huge piece. I think that you’ll see things you’re up against.

Melinda Wittstock:

The alcohol lobby.

Wendy Bronfein:

Yes. Yes.

Melinda Wittstock:

Interesting.

Wendy Bronfein:

Yeah. And this, I mean, it’s a total divergence, but the, the Farm Bill created this loophole that has allowed intoxicating hemp products to proliferate. And what you’re seeing in many states is a huge influx of beverages that use the actives of cannabis in a drink. And that’s really driving a lot in the south and in markets where cannabis has no legal forms. So that’s also part of that alcohol industry relationship. But, you know, I think also it’s the research, right, because that’s the other piece that’s highly constrained and being able to more effectively provide research that can debunk and evolve the category will be huge. And I think with mainstream you, ideally, I think what we want to see is more kind of movement into really this like, CPG category. And some of sort of the legacy tropes of the industry may begin to fall off over time because it becomes this normalized product that’s made it through kind of a universal set of standards with packaging and distribution requirements, rather than these like sort of state-by-state fiefdoms, if you will, of regulations and products become very normalized and.

Wendy Bronfein:

And, you know, quality and effectiveness are what people begin to seek more than anything else.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. So, on the research side, I mean, how much can you learn from, say, countries like Canada where it’s federally legal, or other countries? I’m thinking maybe Portugal. I mean, you know, there’s a few that have gone ahead and done this. Are there any lessons or research that you’re able to utilize?

Wendy Bronfein:

Yeah, so we have a scientific advisory board, and one of the members of that is an expert on cannabis and has a lab. He’s with Technion in Tel Aviv. Dr. Daddy Mary and the. You know, when we gather there, there’s definitely perspectives on how the cannabinoids are connecting to receptors in the body. And when we’re thinking about formulations, what pieces the puzzle you want to put together to produce a certain result, and to produce that result, what sort of dosage form do you want to use to drive the most effectiveness? I think with other markets, like a Canadian market, I don’t know that we hear as much relative to, like, the product innovation. But you definitely have data on just sort of the dynamics of society, public health and safety, the sort of business opportunities and pitfalls that. That one can witness when this sort of turns into a federal, federally legal space.

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Melinda Wittstock:

And we’re back with Wendy Bronfein, Co-Founder, Chief Brand Officer and Director of Public Policy at Curio Wellness.

[INTERVIEW CONTINUES]

Wendy Bronfein:

But I think for us, it’s really about being able to more easily study this plant. We’ve done two different studies so far. One was a sleep product we did under the medical program. We did everything we could to make it as close to what would be a clinical trial under the constraints that we have, because we couldn’t. We couldn’t even do research as far as that would go because of how the rules are written. And right now, we have an IRB-approved placebo-controlled study going on for a product we’ve developed specifically with Crohn’s patients in partnership with a gastro health practice in Maryland. And so, like the way, because the regs in Maryland changed, we were able to do this study in a way that we were never able to do the sleep study years ago. So that I think will be a huge evolution for us.

Wendy Bronfein:

There are even some states where, like the state of Pennsylvania, there are operators who are connected to a university. So, some states encourage it. Even inside the state programs today and other states, it can just be harder. There’s a lot of fear of diversion of the plant material that sort of blocks the ability for businesses to be innovative and to kind of produce products that can be most effective for patients and customers.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. So, what kind of opportunities, Are there any opportunities for you beyond Maryland? When, when you look at your business, ways in which you can expand it, can you expand it internationally into other states? What’s the plan?

Wendy Bronfein:

Yes, so we have expanded already. We operate in Missouri as well. The retail side of our business, our dispensary. We became a franchisor several years ago. And so, we opened our first franchise with a female entrepreneur in Olive Branch, Mississippi. That brand is called Far and Daughter. And that was through a fund that we raised so that we could support the capital needs, the startup costs of women, minorities and disabled veterans to get into this space because the capital is so hard to access. And we have our second franchisee opening very soon in New Jersey.

Wendy Bronfein:

And then we’ve also announced licensing deals with both Ascend Wellness and Vireo Health, which will we in those situations, we will license the IP of the products we’ve developed to them to produce in the states where they operate. So the only way you can expand your brand in a, in the cannabis space is either to secure a license in the state and build the facilities required to have that, which is tens of millions of dollars and or license the IP you’ve developed to somebody who already has that infrastructure in the state and the ability to produce products and then they produce them and push your brand out into that market where they hold the license. Obviously, if we change these laws, right, then you could be, this is another place where you could be more traditional, right. You can Invest, you know, $30 million into a facility in one part of the country and then, you know, send products out all over the country and to different states. Today you have to keep repeating those facilities that you build that are highly specialized in each state.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. So that’s really interesting and hats off to you for offering opportunities, particularly to women and minorities in this area. So, like, say, if someone’s listening to this and they think, oh, yeah, I’m kind of interested in doing some sort of franchise, talk to me about how all that works, what you look for, what you need from them, that kind of thing.

Wendy Bronfein:

Yeah. So really, I mean, a lot of it comes down to, you know, your, your background, your, you know, your work experience, your drive, your ability to manage this business in a. In a highly regulated space. It is not sort of prescriptive in that you, you know, oh, well, you’ve owned four different retail stores yourself. And so, you’re a good fit. I mean, you could be like, you know, work for some company at, you know, in middle management and say, I think I want to pivot and do this.

Wendy Bronfein:

And if you’re the right fit for us and what we believe it takes to run a store, because in the, you know, like, eight years that we’ve been doing this, we both own and operate our own stores, and we service hundreds of dispensaries. So, we see what that dynamic is like, and we have a very clear picture of what it takes to be successful in running these stores, particularly against all the sort of constraints that can pop up. It’s really just about kind of identifying the right people for the roles.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, do you actively look for those people?

Wendy Bronfein:

We had like, sort of a pipeline that comes to us of people who are interested in a vetting process to execute those franchises. And part of it is, I think, a little bit more drawn on the market before even the people. So, because every state has different rules, there are different states. Like, there may be a state where the rules are so constrained, it’s not attractive enough to consider put bringing a franchise there, because certain. For whatever reason, sometimes there’s product restrictions in certain markets, sometimes there’s.

Wendy Bronfein:

If it’s medical, the limitations of who can access it can be too tight and too small, or it’s too hard for doctors to participate. So, a lot of the nuance comes from what does the regulatory landscape look like in any given state.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right, right. So, this is a difficult business. There’s no business that’s easy, but you know what I mean? Some are more complicated than others. Yours is really complicated. Looks hard, right?

Wendy Bronfein:

It is. If you, if you ask my, My dad, who is a been built and exited multiple businesses, he would tell you this is the hardest he’s ever been in. And I think that’s just because you have this. This like, filter that. That Schedule 1 status puts this filter that makes everything harder. And then the states, you know, sometimes you have this dynamic where like, even when you go so far as saying, okay, this was on the ballot, right. An overwhelming majority of citizens voted for this to have access to something, but then the people who make the laws don’t necessarily like the topic. And now you’ve sort of constrained something that was.

Wendy Bronfein:

That was leaked, that was essentially legalized by vote. It’s definitely a push and pull. Interestingly, the chatter of late is that at this year’s conference of the cannabis regulators, which is a group of regulators from all around the country from different states, there was a conversation around over-regulations. I think the industry is sort of sitting with, like, fingers and toes crossed, hoping that what they see as sort of undue constraints that make it harder and more expensive to operate sort of get pulled back. Obviously, always honoring public health and safety. But there are definitely things that we have that are excessive and that whether you were a licensed pharmacy or you were moving something like alcohol products, the way that we have to lock and store and transfer and, and track everything is far greater than any than basically most any other industry.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. I’ve noticed in my long entrepreneurial career and all the people I interview as an investor, you know, there’s some entrepreneurs that are really attracted to hard problems. So, like, what is it about you that just likes something hard? What’s the benefit for you?

Wendy Bronfein:

Well, I would say that when we started this, I don’t think that we knew that it would be like this, but now that you’re asking the question, and it’s reflective in the fact that sort of we’re so dug in, I guess maybe we really do like a challenge. I mean, I think that for me at least, I think the fun part of it is, like, you really have to, like, kind of keep, like, kind of pivoting and considering different solutions. You know, you mentioned before the TV thing, right. And I feel like the way that the TV background serves me is that long ago when I started, I was just working on individual productions. And like you could be like on a remote location doing a shoot and there’s nothing around and somebody’s like, do we have a clown wig? And you’re like, we have, who’s gonna solve that? Like, and you have to solve it. You’re. Are you gonna find something close? Did somebody actually pack an extra whatever it is? And so, you start in that world, I feel like you start getting programmed to always be planned for like the what if and like the creative solution to overcome the obstacle. And I think that’s probably the piece that set me up the best for this.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, what did all your TV experience bring to this? It’s like sort of wildly different in, you know, wildly different industry, right. So just looking at your bio of all the stuff you did, you know, BBC Worldwide America, Sharon Osborne show, you know, it’s just such a different industry. What did you take from that? What were the biggest things from your TV experience that you brought into Curio Wellness?

Wendy Bronfein:

Well, so TV is fast paced, everything has to make air, right. So, I think that the element, you can’t leave work until the thing is done because air is going to hit right, Whether you’re live or it’s taped. So that just commitment to getting the work done and the rush against time I think is definitely a piece of it. Being on the, the branding and marketing side and advertising the network and doing lots of sort of like ad sales tie ins and things like that. I mean think that was core to like the foundational parts of building the brand and setting up the business. We had very high brand awareness in as soon as we started, which was wonderful to achieve that. But I think that all came from the television background and we’ve just actually gone through a rebrand which was for me at least super fun to do and I hope will be as successful as what we achieved in our initial launch. And probably, I think probably being the more talent and celebrity-based side of it.

Wendy Bronfein:

This is a really weird analogy to make, but I’ve often felt like the staff at the dispensaries is akin to the talent in the studio. And I think understanding the similarities of characteristics that occur between those two groups is useful in building a quality staff and how they function and understanding their quirks.

Melinda Wittstock:

Amazing. So, Wendy, what’s the best way for people to get in touch with you in terms of, you know, whether they’re interested in being a franchisee or they are interested in your products or, you know, what’s the best way.

Wendy Bronfein:

So, to better understand Curio Wellness or our retail arm Far and Daughter, you can go to our website curio wellness.com farndaughter.com I’ve always prided us on kind of the website being, you know, if you shop on Sephora you can know everything about a product you want to buy. I’m always very pushing like we need people able to go there and really get insights and teach themselves as much as they want to. And then for me personally I, I would say probably LinkedIn is the best. Obviously the, the brands are also on social channels as well. But for me I would say LinkedIn is the best way.

Melinda Wittstock:

Okay, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for putting on your wings and flying with us today.

Wendy Bronfein:

Thank you.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Melinda Wittstock:

Wendy Bronfein is the Co-Founder, Chief Brand Officer and Director of Public Policy at Curio Wellness.

Melinda Wittstock:

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Melinda Wittstock:

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