867 Barbara Mason:

Melinda Wittstock:

Coming up on Wings of Inspired Business:

Barbara Mason:

They think about, oh, what if I can’t afford it? What if work stops coming in. And what if I can’t continue to pay them? So, there is some fear about it being viewed as an expense versus an investment. And if we can get female entrepreneurs over that hump, they will see that if you hire the right person, the right role in order, and have a very systematic approach, more than likely, you can make more money if you have a team, because you can deliver your service or your product faster, you can deliver it with better results and then in comes more clients.

Melinda Wittstock:

Less than 3% of women-owned businesses make it to more than $1 million in revenues and one of the biggest roadblocks to scalable growth is taking too long to hire and failing to invest in building a team. Barbara Mason is an HR, leadership and team culture expert who’s made it her mission to help countless high-performance female entrepreneurs hire, grow and retrain great teams and get past the internal struggle women often face with asking for assistance. Today we talk about why self-reliance leaders to burnout, stagnation, and an overburdened life where personal growth and business expansion are stifled.

Melinda Wittstock:

Hi, I’m Melinda Wittstock and welcome to Wings of Inspired Business, where we share the inspiring entrepreneurial journeys, epiphanies, and practical advice from successful female founders, so you have everything you need at your fingertips to build the business and life of your dreams. I’m all about paying it forward as a five-time founder and often the only woman in the room, so this podcast is all about catalyzing an ecosystem where women entrepreneurs mentor, promote, buy from, and invest in each other. Because together we’re stronger, and we all soar higher when we fly together.

Today we meet an inspiring entrepreneur who honed her organizational development and talent management skills on the front lines of corporate America for Fortune 500 companies and now focuses on helping women founders overcome the “be everything to everyone all at once” challenge so they can grow and scale their companies successfully.

Barbara Mason is the CEO and founder of Career Pathways Consulting, and today she shares her secrets of how to build a great team, plus how women founders can overcome limiting beliefs that stop them from asking for help and investing in recruiting great people.

Barbara will be here in a moment, and first:

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Melinda Wittstock:

We all know what it takes as women to juggle all the competing demands of our personal and professional lives, and that belief that somehow, we have to be everything to everyone all at once. We can often struggle to ask for help, and allow ourselves to receive it, and this ingrained mindset of self-reliance paradoxically can lead to feelings of inadequacy and burnout, holding us back in business.

Barbara Mason is on a mission to help female founders overcome all barriers to investing in building successful teams and we dive deep into everything from operational growth pains unique to female entrepreneurs and when and how to hire effectively, through to how to find and qualify the right people and get results from your dream team.

Let’s put on our wings with the inspiring Barbara Mason and be sure to download the podcast app Podopolo so we can keep the conversation going after the episode.

[INTERVIEW]

Melinda Wittstock:

Barbara, welcome to wings.

Barbara Mason:

Thank you so much, Melinda. It’s good to be here.

Melinda Wittstock:

I love talking about building amazing teams, and it’s easier said than done. So you’ve been helping all sorts of high performance female entrepreneurs hire and grow their teams. What are the biggest challenges you find doing what you’re doing?

Barbara Mason:

Yeah. So biggest challenge in finding one is helping entrepreneurs see that they need to build a team, especially female entrepreneurs. I think that as females, I think our nature is to do it all ourselves.

Barbara Mason:

We can handle it because we wear many roles outside of just business. And so I think that we’re naturally wired to take on more than probably men. And so I think with how that plays out in business is that we hire way too late because we figure we can just do all the things. So that’s one of the things that I see a lot in working with female entrepreneurs, for sure.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s so true. And it really holds business growth back, because if you’re trying to do all those things, there’s no way you can. And then there’s an equivalency of your time, the value of your time fixing a broken link, as opposed to the value of your time closing a major strategic kind of client or partnership.

Barbara Mason:

Right, right.

Melinda Wittstock:

And so, it sounds like there’s a lot of mindset work that kind of has to happen with women entrepreneurs in particular to get them to that point where they feel comfortable hiring. Take me through that process. Or what is it that makes us think we have to do everything ourselves?

Barbara Mason:

Yeah, I think some of it is our natural warrant. I think women by nature are nurturers, and so we take care of things. And I think it could be our upbringing and all that. But I think there is, like you said, this underlying sense of I should be able to handle it because I’m handling all these other things, and I always have. And so now when it comes to my business, why can’t I not be the marketer, the researcher, the HR person? I can be all the things.

Barbara Mason:

Because in my personal life, I’m all the things. And I think there’s also a piece where we, as women, feel sometimes inferior when we have to ask for help because we’re usually the one giving the help. So, I agree with you that there is a lot of mindset work to be done. If you don’t hire a team, the result of that is that you will continue to do all the things, be burned out, and not be able to have a life, and your business will not grow. It can only get to a certain point with one person doing it. I don’t care what gender you are.

Melinda Wittstock:

100%, I agree with this so much. I remember a mentor of mine actually taking me through what my hourly rate would be if, say, I closed a client that was worth, in annual recurring revenue, a million dollars a year, say, okay, as opposed to my hourly rate if I was doing some sort of clerical thing. Right? And so, he convinced me that I was actually, in effect, stealing from my company.

Barbara Mason:

Wow.

Melinda Wittstock:

Because my rate, it’s a better use of my time to be doing the things that really focus, that really grow the company, as opposed to doing these other things that somebody else could do much cheaper than me. And it was really sobering, I bet. Right? And once you see it that way, you’re like, oh, right. It’s much less expensive, actually, to have a team doing the things to free your time up, to do the things that only you can do, in essence.

Barbara Mason:

Right. If you think about whoever your client is, whether you’re providing a service or a product, it helps you as the CEO, be there for your client and to offer an amazing experience. If you’re tied up doing all the things right. When it comes to the end product, the service, or the product that you’re delivering to your client, then it’s not going to be the best that it can be because you don’t have the time or the bandwidth to spend on it. You’re not showing up as your best self.

Melinda Wittstock:

100%. And it’s tricky because I think a lot of us go into it thinking, oh, I’ve got to keep my costs low or afraid of the expense of hiring. Like, what if I can’t make payroll? It’s all those kinds of fears right around it. And so, do you think people look at it as an expense rather than looking at a team as an investment?

Barbara Mason:

Oh, absolutely. 100%. And so, you’re right. They think what if I can’t afford it? What if work stops coming in. And what if I can’t continue to pay them? So, there is some fear about it being viewed as an expense versus an investment. And if we can get female entrepreneurs over that hump, they will see that if you hire the right person, the right role in order, and have a very systematic approach, more than likely, again, it’s not 100% fail proof, but you will see that you can make more money if you have a team, because you can deliver your service or your product faster, you can deliver it with better results and then incomes, more clients. I think sometimes people hire the wrong position first and they’ll listen to what’s on social media. Oh, get you an EA first.

Barbara Mason:

And for everybody, that’s not the first position you should hire.

Barbara Mason:

And so, I think, again, once we get over the hump of I need to hire you then have to be very strategic about what position you’re hiring and then who are you hiring.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. And what results are they expected to bring to the…

Barbara Mason:

Absolutely.

Melinda Wittstock:

Because that’s the other thing that’s really missing. Like people hire people to do things rather than deliver results.

Barbara Mason:

And those are two different things.

Melinda Wittstock:

They’re totally different. Right. You mentioned that it’s not necessarily the EA that you hire first. It may be the most important person to hire first is someone who’s really, if you’re not the big salesperson or if you’re not the marketing expert or whatever, someone who’s really going to be bringing in kind of revenue into your business.

Barbara Mason:

And I think it depends on the business, depends on the CEO. And that’s why it’s not a cookie cutter thing. And that’s why you have to be very strategic about what that first position is, second position, third position, and all of that, because it has to be tied back to business results. Like you said, what results are you trying to achieve and what’s getting in the way of those results right now? Because again, when we think about it as an investment, the person that you hire, you should get a return on your investment.

Barbara Mason:

So, either you are getting more time so that you can go get more deals, make more revenue for the company, or they should be producing revenue themselves, depending on what position you hire for. But either way, there should be a.

Melinda Wittstock:

Return on your investment 100%. Over the years, I’ve learned, both from mentoring so many female entrepreneurs and also building five of my own businesses through my own experience, that the best thing to do is to really think honestly about what your weaknesses are as well as your strengths.

Melinda Wittstock:

Double down on your strengths and hire your weaknesses. To what extent are people even aware of their strengths and weaknesses in this context of hiring and who they should hire first and such?

Barbara Mason:

They’re very much aware because it shows up in their business much quicker than it would when you’re working for somebody else, right. Because typically when you’ve worked in corporate America or worked for someone else, you’re hired for your strengths, right? So, if you’re an engineer, you get hired as an engineer, so to speak. But when you’re in business for yourself, it does start off. You are doing all the things because that’s the way business starts, right? You got to start somewhere, and you do all the things and it quickly shows up the things that you’re good at, the things that you’re not good at, the things that you enjoy and the things that you don’t enjoy. So, I think that the weaknesses in my experience is pretty apparent. It’s not where we’re trying to figure out, like, oh, I don’t know what I’m not good at. It’s usually pretty apparent.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right, exactly. Because it just shows up, like, say, for instance, if you’re not really attracting the right people or many people to your business, obviously, like, marketing is not your thing or if you’re not closing sales or if you’re really good at all that, but your product isn’t that great. I mean, there’s a whole bunch of things where some people are really good at the evangelism and the marketing and the sales, but really terrible at the operations and operational efficiency.

Melinda Wittstock:

And so, you focus a lot on service-based businesses, is that right?

Barbara Mason:

Yes, I do. That’s the majority of my clientele. I do have some product-based businesses, but usually service based businesses are the ones that kind of gravitate towards my company.

Melinda Wittstock:

And so, in a service-based business, a lot of female entrepreneurs end up sort of pricing their time rather than pricing their value. And in that kind of paradigm, in that context, where do they tend to need the most help earliest?

Barbara Mason:

So that’s an interesting point about charging for their time versus their value. So that kind of goes back to the hiring conversation. A lot of times when entrepreneurs are thinking, I cannot afford to hire, it’s because they’re not charging enough. So that’s one thing.

Barbara Mason:

So that’s one of the first things. And I’m not a business coach, but we do talk about business strategy, because everything that I do from a people standpoint has to be related back to your business, where you’re headed, what results you’re trying to achieve, and what your goals are. So that’s one of the things that shows up, is, what are you charging to be able to hire someone?

Barbara Mason:

And so first you got to get your price in order. The other things I guess that I see are once you’re charging your value, and all of that is being willing to kind of let go of some things in your business. I mean, our businesses are personal. It’s like having a baby.

Barbara Mason:

It’s ours. We don’t want to share that with anybody, and we don’t think that anybody can do it as well as we can. So that’s another thing that I think comes up when I’m working with female entrepreneurs, 100%.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, these are all the things that stand in the way of scale. And scaling a service business is tricky. Like with a product business, it’s sort of more obvious. But with a service-based business, that is kind of your time. For instance, let’s talk about scale and how your employees and having a team can help you get to that kind of scale, where you have more time as a founder or CEO to be working on your business strategically rather than in it.

Barbara Mason:

So, when you’re thinking about service, you have to think about what service you’re delivering, who your client is. And ultimately, as you grow and scale, you have to be comfortable with you as the CEO not being the one that delivers the ultimate service.

Barbara Mason:

But I think there’s a balance with that, because, again, so I have a client that’s a copywriting agency, and so she’s built this agency, and she has tons of copywriters. And we were having this conversation the other day and how she misses being in the actual involvement of writing because she’s grown and scaled her business to where she’s not involved in that anymore.

Barbara Mason:

And so, one of the things we talked about is her having her own special set of clients that are very small, that are private, maybe a higher tier that she still writes for. So, what does that do? It gives her the chance to still have the team where she’s not bogged down into the day to day, but it also feels some need for her to still be a part, a piece of the delivery option. I think as entrepreneurs are growing and scaling one, you have to be comfortable that you’re not going to be the one delivering the service anymore.

Barbara Mason:

And if that scares you, then, okay. What are some ways you can find some balance and still deliver a piece of the service?

Barbara Mason:

So, take, for example, in my business, as I’m building my agency, I have HR consultants that work under me that are dealing with the client, right. And they are doing a lot of the behind the scenes, but I’m still very much the face of the company. But as I continue to grow, every client won’t get a chance to talk to me. And I have to be okay with that if my true desire is to scale my company. Does that make sense?

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, it does. Yeah. 100%.

Melinda Wittstock:

And actually, just kind of knowing what that looks like, because a lot of people found businesses because they’re really good at doing something.

Melinda Wittstock:

And so, you can easily create a job for yourself that’s much harder and lower paying than actually having a job.

Barbara Mason:

Absolutely.

Melinda Wittstock:

A lot of people get trapped there and kind of burnt out. And when you look at statistics that only 3% of women founders get to a million dollars in revenue.

Melinda Wittstock:

This is why, this is the block. I’m convinced of that.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, talk to me about what you advise in that case, because a hiring mistake in a business can be disastrous.

Barbara Mason:

So, I think, again, foundationally, it goes back to, number one, thinking about what results are you trying to get? So, what position do I need, number one? And then what qualities do I need the ideal person to have? So, it’s almost like when we talk in business about our client avatar, like who our ideal client is, think about what your ideal employee looks like. And that’s two things. One, what technical or competent skills do they need to have? So, if you’re hiring a budget analyst, obviously they need to know finance and budgets. So, what are the technical hard skills that they need for their job? The second piece of that is, what do they need to have from a soft skills perspective to be of value to your culture and align with your culture that you’re trying to build.

Barbara Mason:

And for that particular job. So, if you’re hiring a salesperson, we know that they need to have sales experience.

Barbara Mason:

That’s the technical stuff. But from a soft skills perspective, if your job is all cold calling, meaning you don’t have a job where they’re going to be given warm leads that they just got to follow up with, that’s much different than somebody who’s used to only doing warm leads.

Barbara Mason:

A person that does cold calling has to be way more aggressive.

Barbara Mason:

They have to be comfortable with no’s. So those are more of the soft skills. Conversely, let’s say you’re hiring an executive assistant, and for your business, they have to be very good at being the gatekeeper, being able to tell people no, but not being where they piss people off at the same time. Right. They have to have that demeanor where people still like them, but they’re still protecting your time. You don’t find that on a resume.

Barbara Mason:

It’s not going to say that. What it’s going to say on the resume is that I have five years supporting a senior leader. That’s the technical skills. So, you have to know from a soft skills perspective what you want. Then you have to build your interview process that encapsulates where you can get the information on both of those different areas. So that’s just a start.

Melinda Wittstock:

And sometimes it’s hard to discern that because some people are really good at the job interview, and you don’t really know until you’re working with them. What are some great questions that elicit that cultural fit and alignment on the soft skills.

Barbara Mason:

Yeah. Again, knowing what culture you have and what you’re trying to build, and then you have to design questions that fit that culture. So, for example, if your culture is all about, you want people that think outside of the box, you don’t want people that are very traditional in their thinking, then you need to have a question that talks about that.

Barbara Mason:

And the type of question, and what I mean by that is you want to focus on what we call situational questions. So those are questions that said, tell me about a time that you did right, versus a hypothetical question is, tell me what you would do if those are two very different questions, two different responses. So, in the example that I gave about, you want somebody that’s thinking outside of the box. If I ask you, Melinda, tell me about a time that you pushed the envelope in your company and you came up with an idea that was against the standard. Who did you pitch the idea to? How did you pitch it, and what was the result? That’s one question, right? Versus if I say, Melinda, tell me how you feel about thinking outside of the box. That’s a hypothetical question.

Barbara Mason:

So, the first question is a very specific tell me about what you did, because past behavior is going to predict future performance. So that’s question one. Question two is about what you think. And so, when you ask people what they think, there is a time and place for that. But when I ask you what you think, you have the time to just kind of create the perfect story. That sounds good. Versus if I say, tell me about what you did, you got to go back to something that you actually did. And it’s much harder for people to come up with that on the fly if they have not done it.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, it does completely. I mean, I think a lot of experienced founders have been in the position where the person answers those things really well because they’re savvy. You know what I mean? They know kind of what answer you’re looking for, and then they join and they’re not the right person. So, talk to me a little bit about if you find yourself hiring someone who’s not working out. Either they’re not a cultural fit or they sold you a bill of goods and it’s not working, or they’re just not fitting in, or they’re not delivering the results that you both agreed they should be delivering, how quickly should you be sort of evaluating them and maybe saying goodbye?

Barbara Mason:

Yeah, I think the first 90 days is very critical. And to me, in the first 90 days, 95% of the time, you get all that you need to know. There’s very few times that if you’re terminating someone, let’s say two years from after you hire them and for whatever you’re terminating them for, if it’s a performance issue and not a conduct issue. Conduct, meaning they stole something, they violated a policy. But if it’s a performance issue, I guarantee you, you saw it in the first 90 days, right? Nine times out of 1,090 days.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, maybe have a 90 day introductory period or something.

Barbara Mason:

Yes, but not just having that language. In that 90 days, you need to be setting some clear deliverables. You need to be meeting with them regularly and giving feedback. So, if in the first 30 days, you see, did I get sold a bill of goods, they’re not really speaking up, they’re not really thinking outside of the box, then you have that. Hey, Melinda, one of the things we talked about here is our culture is to speak up. I noticed it means you’ve been extremely quiet when I ask you for suggestions. You’re kind of repeating what somebody else said. I really need you to kind of put yourself out there and come to the table with some creative concepts, whatever the case may be.

Barbara Mason:

So, I give you that feedback at day 15 or day 30, then I watch you and give you more opportunities for me to see that behavior. So, either you’re going to do it or you’re not. And so, then I’m coaching and I’m giving feedback again.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, you’re giving them the opportunity to succeed.

Barbara Mason:

Absolutely.

Melinda Wittstock:

And at the same time, you’re also documenting things. If things come to a head and you have to say goodbye, you’re protecting yourself.

Barbara Mason:

Absolutely.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. I mean, this is so important. I think what happens is a lot of founders are so busy, like, in the early stages, doing so much that they’re not necessarily on top of all of that, like the HR function. Right. Or the onboarding function, or they don’t have the systems in place. And so, a lot of that stuff doesn’t get documented, and it gets missed. So, it can be tricky, because as you start to grow your business, say you’re the founder and you’re used to doing everything, and you’ve been doing everything and whatnot, and you have a couple of people, and now you have more people, but you’re still spread too thin, and you don’t have those systems set up. And now suddenly you’re growing really quickly.

Barbara Mason:

Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

Stuff gets missed. And so, at what point do you really need an HR person or function in your business to help you with all of that? Because you just can’t. Maybe it’s just not your intrinsic skill, or maybe you just don’t have the time or the expertise to set up those systems. And so when do you need, like, a fractional HR person or a full time HR person in your business?

Barbara Mason:

Yeah. And so that’s a loaded question. And it really evolves as your business evolves. So when do you need HR? As soon as you have one employee. That is the honest truth, and I would even venture to say before that, just to help you start thinking about workforce strategy. And so that doesn’t mean that you hire somebody in your business that’s on your team and that’s one of your w two employees. I think that that is a place to get a fractional HR consultant like my company or others like that, to have an HR expert on your team from a consultant perspective that you can use as you need. I think that is how it starts.

Barbara Mason:

As you continue to grow and scale, then you can elevate your time with them, your investment and all of that, until you get to the place where you need your own internal HR person. And usually that does not happen where you need your own internal person full time until you’re well over at least 50, 75 employees. But up until 50 employees, you can certainly, it’s better from an investment standpoint, and it’s better for what you need to have more of that fractional HR support.

Melinda Wittstock:

And at least doing things like making sure you have an employee handbook.

Barbara Mason:

Oh, absolutely.

Melinda Wittstock:

All of those things. And also, when you’re hiring, different states have different rules.

Melinda Wittstock:

It gets very complicated very fast, doesn’t it?

Barbara Mason:

And that’s why I say when you decide, hey, I’m not going to be a solopreneur and I’m going to build a team, you really should reach out for HR support then and again, it could be, hey, let’s have a workforce like we offer a workforce strategy call, where we get together for 90 minutes and we talk about, okay, tell me where you’re headed in your business and we help you define, here are the positions that I need, and here is the order that I need to hire them in. Here is the budget I need to allocate for that. Here’s what those positions pay. Like all of that stuff you can get from an HR consultant instead of you trying to piece it all together and fumble over it. So really, as soon as you decide, I’m going to build a team. You need HR.

Melinda Wittstock:

Exactly. And so, tell me a little bit then about career pathways, consulting, and how you work with folks, so they come in and you do this evaluation and just tell me about your process.

Barbara Mason:

Yeah, absolutely. So, we have three ways that clients can work with us. So, one is an ala carte. And so, ala carte means, hey, it’s just a one-time thing. So, either that’s going to be, you want us to hire for you, so we offer a full service do it for you recruiting service, where we go and find the person for you. So that’s one ala carte item. And then the second one is the workforce planning strategy session that I talked about. So, you can do two of those things.

Barbara Mason:

And that’s like, we’re in and we’re out. So, it’s just a one-time thing. The second thing that we offer are what we call HR support. Packages. And so, in that package, you get support for an entire year. And there’s three different levels of that. And there’s different things that you get at different levels. And so much support based on hours and a lot of other amenities.

Barbara Mason:

And so that’s one way to have a consultant. You pay a one-time fee, and you have HR support for the year. And then the third way that we work with clients is that we are their HR department. So, when you start to get big and you’re in that 30 to 50 employee range and you need HR every single day, we do all the HR things for you until you can transition and get your own HR person. So those are the three ways. So, it kind of evolves as the business evolves or depending on what client level that we get. And so that’s basically the way it works. So, we provide all HR support that you need at whatever level business you’re in and whatever industry and whatever support you need.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s amazing, because having scaled a number of businesses, like who you’re being in that founder stage, as opposed to as you start to get your first employees. And I’ve just noticed even with my own time as a CEO and founder, the recruitment, and the onboarding and all of that just becomes a lot more like a bigger part of my time as my previous businesses have grown. And so, who you’re being as a CEO and founder changes over time as well. A lot of folks aren’t necessarily aware of that. And then also you can, I don’t know, the skills that are required and the experience that’s required and the resources that are required are just kind of different, but also just who you’re being. So as a CEO and founder, you’re setting the culture, you’re setting the tone, all of these sorts of things and making sure you have the resources, making sure you have the right people, all of that.

Melinda Wittstock:

And so, talk to me about the growth, almost like the personal growth as well as career growth you see in those founders as you work with them in terms of how they transition, in terms of their own role and how easy or hard that actually is or what it takes to grow with your business.

Barbara Mason:

Yeah, that is a hard process. I see a lot of personal because owning your own business, you find out exactly who you are as a person. I mean, wow, you really find out what your strengths are, what your fears, like, your fears and your insecurities, they rise to the top quickly when you have your own business, and you also see what you’re made of, how much resolve you have.

Barbara Mason:

And so, I see a lot of that in my female business owners, and we grow together, meaning, like, I’m there, they’ve cried to me, right. I’ve pushed them when they felt like they couldn’t go on anymore or they made a hiring mistake, and they feel like all hope is lost and they’re a horrible business owner and all that, and I have to bring them back to reality. Like, hey, no, that’s not the case. Let’s talk about what really happened here. And then also helping to remind them of their why when things get tough or when they’re trying to chase a butterfly or chase, oh, well, my competitor is doing this. Let’s talk about does that make sense for your business? And also, does it align with why you are in business?

Barbara Mason:

And so, I try to get as personal as I can with my clients because my whole goal is to help support you as you build your business. I have some clients that the reason why they built their business is to have time, freedom.

Barbara Mason:

They want to be able to show up for their kids’ baseball game. And so, I can speak to that and say, hey, if you add this one more service and you don’t have somebody to deliver it, you’re not going to make it to his game. Is that okay with you? Because you told me it wasn’t okay.

Barbara Mason:

So, I’m growing with them. I’m reminding them, I’m encouraging them, I’m motivating them to kind of, as they evolve in their business, and then when they grow and they’re like, oh, my goodness, I didn’t think this would happen. Yeah, let’s celebrate, right? And now let’s talk about the next step.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, I mean, we joke often on this podcast, if you want therapy, just become an entrepreneur because …

Barbara Mason:

Oh, absolutely.

Melinda Wittstock:

All your stuff is going to come up and you’re going to fail multiple times, like micro failures, bigger failures back. They’re all failing forward. It’s sort of like a scientist in a lab. And so, you do have to get that mindset right. And it’s tricky because just finding ways to that inner bully voice we all have, finding ways to find sort of self-acceptance through that process is tricky. Okay, so I failed there, but I learned something, so how am I going to implement that learning? But you’re right, I think there’s an element of what you do. It sounds like that involves a little bit of kind of entrepreneurial therapy, right?

Barbara Mason:

You can’t be in this business and be opposed to that. And the thing about it is that I’m a business owner, too, right? So, it’s not like I’m some magical part. I’m going through it as well. I can share my own experiences.

Barbara Mason:

And I think that’s why it’s really important that even as female entrepreneurs, one of the things that I always say is you must have support other entrepreneurs. Because I know for me, my friends are people that either I grew up with or college or people that I worked with. Well, they still work a job. And no matter what happens when you’re working a nine to five and you’ve never owned your own business, you cannot understand what it’s like to be an entrepreneur. You just can’t. And so, you have to have other people that are entrepreneurs because it can be very lonely in this space. And so, I think having that support circle or support groups, coaching groups, whatever that looks like for you is really important.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s vital. The loneliness piece is not to be underestimated either, because you can be so focused on your business, your business kind of takes over your whole life. And so, your relationship also with your team members and where are you relative to them in that equation? Also. So, you need people kind of to mentor you outside of your business.

Barbara Mason:

Oh, yes, for sure.

Melinda Wittstock:

Because you’re not going to be besties necessarily with your team members. You want a good relationship with them. But there’s some sort of boundary there as well. Do you find that sometimes people cross that boundary or there are issues there?

Barbara Mason:

I’ve only seen that boundary cross when people are hiring either their family members or their friends, which I strongly discourage. Let friends be friends. Let family be family. So I have seen some really messy situations when they’ve hired friends because those boundaries are already intrinsically crossed.

Barbara Mason:

And it’s hard to manage someone that’s your friend when they’re not performing or a family member. I have not seen it as much as people hiring in, quote unquote, like off the street, people that are not related to them. I have not seen that as much. So, I’m sure that it happens, but it just hasn’t happened with the clients that I’ve had.

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Melinda Wittstock:

And we’re back with Barbara Mason, HR and leadership expert and CEO of Career Pathways Consulting.

[INTERVIEW CONTINUES]

Melinda Wittstock:

One of the things that you talk about is not having an operations manager doing HR. Talk to me a little bit about that. Why not have those positions cross up? Why not?

Barbara Mason:

And that’s one of the things I see that as businesses grow and scale, they’ll just make the operations manager over HR. And the reason why that’s not good is because operations managers are focused on the operations, right. That is going to be their first lens, and that’s what it should be. And so, the HR piece kind of becomes a catch. All right. It’s kind of like, oh, yeah, I got to do that, too. And it’s the same thing as when we’re as entrepreneurs or any role, if we’re focused on too many things, then something is going to go lacking.

Barbara Mason:

So that’s one thing. The second thing is HR is not their expertise. And so obviously, I’m really passionate about this because I went to school for HR and I’ve been doing it for 20 years. People sometimes cheapen the HR experience and feel like anybody can do it. But it is a skill, a discipline, just like marketing is, or just like research is, or just like sales is. It’s its own discipline that comes with its own rules, I. E. Laws.

Barbara Mason:

And so, there’s not going to be an operations person that’s going to be in HR meetings about the laws and looking up those laws. It’s just not their skill set and it’s not going to be the lens from which they come from. And from an HR perspective, that’s my lens.

That’s what I think about first, is whatever you’re doing in your business, how is it going to impact your people? If you have people, how is it going to impact your bottom line? And then how do you leverage your people, your team, to increase your bottom line?

And then what type of environment are your people in, which is your culture? So, everything that I’m advising on, that I’m helping you strategize on is going to be with that lens, your operations person. That’s not the lens that they’re using, and there’s no judgment because that’s not their function.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, 100%.

Barbara Mason:

It’s like asking your doctor to also be your accountant. Just because he may be good at numbers doesn’t mean he’s your accountant. He’s your doctor. Let him be your doctor.

Melinda Wittstock:

This is so true because I think often, especially in startup situations, it’s kind of like, okay, you’re a warm body. Can you do this? You know what I mean?

Barbara Mason:

Absolutely.

Melinda Wittstock:

And it doesn’t work. So, a lot of this, too, is about setting yourself up and your company to actually attract top talent. Like, what is it that makes somebody want to work for you and with you? What are all the different conditions there because you can set out to go and recruit, but how are you increasing your chances of finding the right people?

Barbara Mason:

Yeah, and I think this is good news, especially for small businesses, because I think sometimes small businesses feel like they can’t compete with the big companies, and you actually can, especially in today’s workforce. So, today’s workforce is really focused on culture, mission, values. Now, if you would have asked me this question 20 years ago, that would have not been the answer. But today’s workforce, and you have to think about who’s in the workforce now. We have a lot of millennials and Gen X.

Barbara Mason:

And you have to think about what they’ve been through and what they’ve seen. And so,they are really into culture. So, what does that mean? It’s how they feel at work. Do they feel like work is a welcoming place? Does it feel like home? That’s really important to them.

Barbara Mason:

When you think about values, they want to work for companies where they believe in the mission and the values, and it aligns with their mission and values. That did not used to be the case when our parents and our grandparents chose jobs. And so, I think as a small business, you have to think about, we don’t talk enough about culture. And most entrepreneurs when I ask you, well, what’s your culture? They look at me like, and I’m like, it’s your company. You’re building it. You have the privilege of building it and making it what you want, and you need to be able to articulate what that is. I mean, it’s almost like you’re in sales and you are because you’re selling your company to somebody else. So, what’s going to make them join what your culture is? Where are you headed? What are your values? And then the last piece is, how does that person fit within the company? So how does their job, what they do fit within the bigger scheme of the company and its growth? And that’s so much easier to identify and to see with a smaller company than a big company.

Melinda Wittstock:

Such good advice. And so how is the best way for someone listening to this, that really needs your services to work with you? What’s your process? What’s the best way for them to find you and engage with you?

Barbara Mason:

Yeah, absolutely. So, you can find us on our website and on LinkedIn and on Instagram. Those are the three main places where we are. And I’m sure you’ll have all that in the show notes with the links and stuff. And then it’s just to get on my calendar for an initial discovery call. And so we spend 30 minutes talking about what kind of business you’re in, what challenges are you having, and where you feel like you need some help, and then we can talk about some solutions. So, it’s just really that easy. Spend 30 minutes complimentary, and let’s just talk about your business.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, fantastic. Well, I want to thank you so much for putting on your wings and flying with us today.

Barbara Mason:

It’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

[END INTERVIEW]

Barbara Mason is the CEO and founder of Career Pathways Consulting.

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