657 Debra Roberts :

Business is about people, and how effective we can be as executive leaders and team members in building relationships of trust spells the difference between success and failure. So what’s the best way to communicate to get what you want … from your team, your boss, your customers? My guest today is Debra Roberts – conversation expert and the creator of the Relationship Protocol. She shares how we can empower ourselves with authentic communication.

MELINDA

Hi, I’m Melinda Wittstock, and welcome to Wings of Inspired Business. I’m a 5-time serial entrepreneur and founder-CEO of the social podcast app Podopolo, and here on Wings we share the inspiring entrepreneurial journeys, epiphanies, and practical advice from successful female founders … on every business topic across every industry across more than 650 episodes now … so you have everything you need at your fingertips to build the business and life of your dreams. Wings is all about women lifting as we climb, so share the love by sharing Wings with an entrepreneurial friend so they can accelerate their dreams!

Today we meet an expert in communications and relationships who helps businesspeople navigate important conversations, whether inspiring a team, closing a sale, or negotiating a contract – and much more. We’re going to dig deep into where women sometimes go wrong, and where we can leverage our intuition and empathy to build trust and get results.

Debra will be here in just a moment, first:

If you love podcasts, and wish you had a podcast concierge who knows what you love, serving you with the exact right new listens for your interests and tastes, then check out Podopolo. It’s the new app that makes listening personalized and social – with 4.5 million audio and video podcasts at your fingertips with an easy way to share and discuss with friends. Listen to Wings on Podopolo, connect with me there, and if you have a podcast, claim it for free to grow your reach and your revenue. That’s Podopolo – free to download in either app store.

Debra Roberts is a conversation expert and creator of The Relationship Protocol communication model. Her proprietary and practical approach to communication revolutionizes how professionals work together, and her groundbreaking work is at the core of The Communication Protocol, an online professional development program for companies and teams.

Debra examines existing communication patterns and teaches essential tools for communicating effectively in the workplace and in personal relationships. As a result, organizations experience increased productivity, collaboration, engagement, and overall satisfaction. Her comprehensive approach also provides participants with the skills they need to defuse conflicts and create stronger, more positive relationships in all areas of their lives.

With a background as an EMDR-certified trauma consultant and licensed clinical social worker, Debra has many years and a wide range of experience extending to all types of challenging relationships in the home and workplace. She’s been featured as an expert on multiple media platforms, including The New York Times; she’s also an award-winning author, a columnist with Inc.com, and an occasional contributor to Business Insider.

So let’s get into the communications protocol, how to create a vibrant and collaborative company culture, how to avoid misunderstandings, and much more. Here’s Debra Roberts.

Melinda Wittstock:         Debra, welcome to Wings.

Debra Roberts:                 Hi, thank you for having me.

Melinda Wittstock:         I’m really excited, Debra, to have this conversation with someone who’s an expert in conversations. I’m a little bit intimidated.

Debra Roberts:                 Oh, no.

Melinda Wittstock:         What makes a conversation great?

Debra Roberts:                 Oh, that’s a great question, actually. I think it’s not so much what makes a conversation great as the person who is communicating, how they’re communicating, how they’re coming across and getting their point across in a way that they want to be heard. So when I say a conversation expert, it’s really asking people to be a little bit more thoughtful when it’s an important conversation about how they want to come across and what they want to achieve. That’s more of my angle, so to speak.

Melinda Wittstock:         Well, sometimes we’re very unaware, potentially, of how we’re coming across. Everybody’s in there kind of me bubble.

Debra Roberts:                 Yes.

Melinda Wittstock:         We all see the world through our own eyes and sometimes we can need be using the same words to mean different things or different words to mean the same things. And there’s so many ways in terms of how conversations can go awry. And so let’s walk through some of those, particularly in the context of women in business. There are some of the biggest kind of conversational mistakes. Say let’s start with a woman leading a growing team that she has to inspire, and to get results, to grow her business.

Debra Roberts:                 I think that male or female, a leader leading a growing team should function, for the most part, the same way that we show up in a committed way that we model what we want to see from our team. But I think with women, there’s an opportunity sometimes to read the room a little bit better and to key into the individuals perhaps that are sitting at the table, so speak and connect with their experience to be able to guide them in a more deeper inspirational way. So I think sometimes that’s the edge that women have when they’re leaders, because they have a more empathic approach, oftentimes. And I don’t say that as a soft skill or a weakness as much as an opportunity to acknowledge what’s going on for someone at the table and how they can support them.

Melinda Wittstock:         Yeah. I hate how soft power somehow makes it seem like it’s not as important. It’s actually critically important. And it’s actually one of the things where women have a real advantage as long as we really tap into that.

Debra Roberts:                 Yeah. That’s why I said that because I think that that is something that can be minimized. For me, on a larger scale, knowing the way that I work and the things that I’m teaching about communication and self-awareness, prior to the pandemic, nobody was talking about that on the scale that they are now. But now those things that were seen in some ways as soft skills, because I’m talking about the ‘how to’s’, how to actually the nuts and bolts, how to have those conversations and or self-awareness. Now people are seeing that when we’re kind and when we’re self-aware and when we have good communication skills, we as individuals and companies and leaders can go so much further. So I think that, that, what’s the word I want to say. We’ll go with that negative framework around those being soft skills has started to change, which gets me very excited.

Melinda Wittstock:         I think so too. I often think that the best conversationalists are great listeners.

Debra Roberts:                 100%. I think that we have to be able to listen from a place of wanting to understand and knowing that we don’t have to say the last word, we don’t have to be right. And when you are keyed in, you can learn so much more than when you are prepping for the next thing that you want to say.

Melinda Wittstock:         Often you get that sense in a room, where everybody in the room is thinking so much about what they’re going to say next, they miss, like completely like 100% what someone else just said. It’s oh, I see that dynamic all the time.

Debra Roberts:                 Yeah. Well, I call that half listening because I’m looking at you and I’m listening to you, but my brain is half there and half not there. And I’m going to miss the nuances. I’m going to miss how to be really connecting with you, particularly if it’s an important conversation, to be able to be keyed in and not worried about what you’re going to say, or how are you going to come across or some insecurity, or just being distracted. It’s not a good look and it’s not helpful to us as individuals. It just doesn’t… In the end it hurts us.

Melinda Wittstock:         Absolutely. So if you are insecure or you feel you have something to prove, or, I mean all the different things that come down to how we deep down in our subconscious view our value. This all gets kind of betrayed in our conversations, whether we know it or not, is that fair?

Debra Roberts:                 It can, for sure. It doesn’t, if you have good self-awareness and you prepare for the conversation or you know you’re going into the meeting and you prepare as best you can for thinking almost projecting ahead. But how do I want to come across? If I know I’m not feeling confident and I sit up straight and I make eye contact and I have my notes in front of me that I know will help to prompt me, I might feel better about being there. So even if I’m feeling insecure, I don’t have to look insecure or come across that way. So that’s when it can be helpful, but if I go in cold and I know I’m nervous and I haven’t really thought about it, you can hear it in my voice. Like that is how we’re going to show up in a less confident, less self-assured way. And then that’s the vibe we’re putting out.

Melinda Wittstock:         So, communication has changed a lot within companies during the pandemic, of course, because everybody was suddenly working from home and now with the great resignation as they’re calling it, more and more people getting used to working from home and getting used to the Zoom and the slack and all that kind of stuff don’t really want to go back. So what are some of the challenges you’ve seen in terms of communications over Zoom, where you can’t necessarily as well pick up on the clues you would get, if you are having a conversation in person with somebody.

Debra Roberts:                 So you may or may not know that I wrote an article for Business Insider a few years back, and it was called how to get someone to like you in under five minutes. And then two years later, when all of this was going on in the pandemic, they asked me to write a follow up, how to get someone to like you on Zoom in under five minutes, because to your point, we’re looking at a box and we don’t see technically below someone’s shoulders. So there’s body language, there’s energy, and a lot of the connections that we have face to face working together.

Debra Roberts:                 So what happens is that it’s our job to make sure that our voice is heard, that our energy is a little bit higher when it’s an important discussion meeting conversation. Because if you speak at the same tone for an extended period of time, it comes across a little bit flatter on the Internet, through Zoom or any of those kinds of platforms. So I always recommend that people sit a little bit almost on the edge of their seat, sit up straight. And that makes us wake up a little bit and present a little bit more alert. That’s just one little tip, but in general, when it comes to Zoom and all those types of platforms, the goal is that we overcommunicate almost.

You want to make sure that the person knows that you got their point, whether it’s nodding, because sometimes when we’re actively listening, we look like we’re frozen. So even like a little thing like that, it’s good to know that, oh, I haven’t moved in a while. Somebody might not even realize that I’m attending to what they’re saying. I might look bored or I might look disconnected. So there’s a way of moving a little bit, even to simply let the person know that you’re still connected. You’re listening, asking a question or smiling, doing something that indicates that you’re interested in the conversation and you’re attending to what’s going on.

Melinda Wittstock:         Yeah. I find it kind of interesting, too. Do you look at the little red light on your computer or do you look at the person who’s actually talking to you?

Debra Roberts:                 I know. I know. I get caught with that too. I’m awful with that, actually.

Melinda Wittstock:         It’s really kind of confusing. And I find myself sort of shifting around. It’s kind of like, oh, what should I be doing? But it’s interesting if you are speaking and you’re seeing other people looking away or looking down, or maybe they’re just concentrating that they look really still and static and you wonder, am I being kind of heard, you know. And so sort of like off putting to the person who’s speaking. So conversations are a two way street. Like everybody has to show up 100%. I imagine for it to be a great conversation, whether it’s just a personal conversation or a business conversation, but that’s not always the case.

Debra Roberts:                 But that’s absolutely true. There’s a sender and a receiver. Initially the sender has more responsibility because they lead things off. So they can set the tone, they can state the purpose, they can state their intentions for the reason we’re having the conversation. But then it’s like a ping pong. Then the ball is passed to the person who received that information and what are they going to do with that information now and how they respond matters. So everybody does have a responsibility. I’ll share one quick tip that was given to me by someone who was guiding me about how to do a presentation that I was doing live on the Internet.

Now I had 200 people at a presentation on Zoom. And the suggestion was to ask questions of the audience that are pretty much yes or no answers said that and say, just put it in the chat or raise your hand. You get them engaged in a physical way. And somehow that stirs things up a little bit more and it energizes you to be talking. So whether it’s with your team even, or with 200 people, to be able to ask questions and get people involved in some physical way, even if it’s taking notes, putting something in the chat, raising their hand, that can be a little bit engaging too, and helpful.

Melinda Wittstock:         So, when you think of women entrepreneurs communicating, what makes someone really effective? And the counter to that is what are some of the most common pitfalls that we can become conscious of and learn and overcome in your experience? What have you seen?

Debra Roberts:                 I think the strengths that are lovely to see with women leaders and women entrepreneurs is when they show up in their power and they show up in full force where they’re prepared, they know their stuff and everybody knows it because they’ve done the work that they needed to do to get where they are. And that’s their aura, everything that comes from them, oozes this strength and this kindness, but even being firm and clear and directed in what they’re saying. But when anybody shows up that way, it’s exciting and it makes people want to work with you and for you. And I believe that the opportunities for women now are so great because the playing field has been leveled in many ways. And more women are given opportunities now than they did before with the Internet and many online businesses.

So we all have an opportunity to show up differently and show up in our femininity. We don’t have to be gruff and tough. I use the word kindness. I use empathy. I talk about emotions. I mean, I have a mental health background that was hidden for a long time. I was told don’t mention it when you’re talking about business. Now, how we function as a total person, we’re allowed to show up that way. And we’re allowed to show up as human beings and admit errors. And I think when women show up with authenticity and intelligence, nothing better in my book to tell you the truth.

Melinda Wittstock:         Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, authenticity is a big one. And that presupposes that you are on a continual journey to get to know yourself and really feel confident enough to actually be your authentic self. And I think sometimes depending on where you are in your career, a lot of people can follow the trap of feeling they have something to prove or trying to fit themselves into a box of what they think they should be or should do or should say, which is inauthentic to them. And I don’t know, I’m curious your perspective on this, but I think when there’s a gap between who you are and what you’re kind of pretending to be, other people sense it, like they don’t necessarily know what is causing the discomfort,

Debra Roberts:                 I’m sorry. I’m sorry.

Melinda Wittstock:         Yeah. They don’t necessarily know what’s causing the discomfort, but there is kind of almost imperceptible, but it’s there.

Debra Roberts:                 What made me want to jump in was because what happens is trust gets broken. If you’re saying one thing, but it’s just not in sync because I don’t believe that the messaging is in line with how you really feel or what your level is at or the information that you have if something’s off. And I can tell something’s off, one human being to another, that’s how trust gets broken in a small way. Trust isn’t just about big betrayals and stealing and lying. It’s also about these kinds of observations that we make when we’re communicating with someone. And we can really see that whatever they’re delivering, there’s something disconnected between their messaging and the person or whatever that is that you are referring to as well. And I think that it’s such a good point because for me, what I was going to say before about the leaders that don’t do well and how they show up, not effectively, that’s one way and another is when a leader thinks that they’ve reached their top level of learning and there’s no more learning to do.

Melinda Wittstock:         That’s never the case, but it’s tragic when people come to that conclusion about themselves.

Debra Roberts:                 That’s right. Exactly. So it’s like one or the other, either they’re a little bit puffed up and not really there where they’re presenting themselves or they are fully formed and no one is fully formed. The beauty of life is that we keep learning and that’s what self-awareness does. It helps us connect even more dots. And so we can show up and admit our mistakes and be able to connect with other people and their experiences and learn from each other. It’s sad to me when I meet someone who feels that they’re done. They’ve learned it all, and everybody should just listen to them. It’s such a turnoff because nobody wants to hear from someone whose ego is through the roof when there’s always more learning, the world is changing. Information is growing and changing, and we all need to some extent stay on top of whatever area we are in and the learning that we need to do for ourselves and for our businesses.

Melinda Wittstock:         Mm-hmm (affirmative). Absolutely. So what do you recommend for women who often feel like they’re not heard? How can they be heard? I hear from women entrepreneurs all the time where they are explaining something, but say, they’re not being hurt by other people. And to some degree, they can communicate better. And on another degree, they’ve got a whole bunch of people around them, say they’re negotiating with or on their team, or even in a relationship where that person’s just not a good listener.

Debra Roberts:                 So it depends on who’s on the other side of this interaction, but in general, number one, we all have a have a responsibility to be the best communicator that we can be so that we can show up as confidently as we can. But number two, there’s nothing wrong with, in a polite way, saying I’m not quite sure I’m being heard and either repeat what you said, but you are looking at them in the eye and saying, this is the third time I’ve shared this with you. I still feel like you’re not either hearing what I’m saying, or you disagree with me and you’re not telling me, so help me understand what I’m missing here, but I would go for it. I think that if you have the gumption to do that, if it’s appropriate, given the circumstances, and it’s not done in an aggressive way, it’s done with curiosity, but clarity that something’s amiss here.

And I would really appreciate either knowing that everyone is paying attention to what I’m saying, because this is not acceptable. It’s everything from that to help me understand what I’m missing here. So there’s a number of different ways to insert something like that in a conversation, but sometimes stating the obvious, there’s all sorts of ways to do it, but I highly recommend stating the obvious. If you’re having a conversation with someone and something’s going on between you, that is glaring to you, stop and think, how can I tell this person that I don’t feel like they’re listening without saying, “What the heck’s wrong with you?” But pointing out that I feel like you’re not hearing what I’m saying. And if they say they are say, can you help me? Can you repeat what you think I said? I want to make sure that we’re on the same page.

Melinda Wittstock:         So when misunderstandings happen, which they do, quite frequently, what’s the way out of them? Because often they can continue and build and build and build and build until there’s such distance between people. It’s hard to see like deals fall apart. People leave companies. All kinds of stuff happen and which could have been avoided. So how do you solve a misunderstanding?

Debra Roberts:                 So one of my favorite topics, believe it or not, are misunderstandings because of exactly what you said, Melinda, that they can lead to such toxic endings and difficult, painful endings. When if early on they were diffused, none of that has to happen. So if I go back to what I said a moment ago, if you and I are a conversation and I noticed that tension is rising, you seem to be getting irritated. We’re going back and forth. We’re not connecting. I call it misfiring. We’re kind of misfiring. I stop talking and I comment on what’s going on between us.

I state the obvious. You know Melinda, tension seems to be rising or you look like you’re getting upset or we seem to be misfiring. And sometimes it’s, do you want to take a break and come back to it or help me understand what I’m missing or I’m sorry if that wasn’t my intention to say something that offended you or upset you type of a thing. When we own our part, if we’ve done something even unintentionally to upset the other person or contributed in some way to this miscommunication or misunderstanding, it’s not about apologizing for the world or even apologizing at all.

You can simply say that wasn’t my intention. I didn’t mean for you to get upset by that. Can we try it again? But commenting on what’s going on between you is how you stop a misunderstanding. So you have to bring self-awareness so that you know what’s happening for you too. You know if you’re starting to get upset, but also what’s happening to the other person and what’s going on between you, if the energy changes, if they shut down. You could see their body language changes or it starts getting loud, stop talking about the content, even if it’s an important point that you’re making, it’s not worth it, because you’ve already lost them once the misunderstanding really starts to get heated. So stop talking about the topic and start talking about what’s happening between you. Just ask a genuine question sincerely saying, what’s going on here. We seem to be arguing. I don’t want to argue with you about this. I want us to have a productive conversation.

Melinda Wittstock:         Absolutely. Yeah. That makes perfect sense. I mean, and I guess this is part of your communication protocol. What is your communication protocol and how does it change how we all work together?

Debra Roberts:                 So there’s two different things. So my communication model is called the relationship protocol and that is a communication model that I developed through my many decades of working with challenging relationships in all settings. I have a clinical background, I have a trauma background. I have a business consulting background and all of it led me to see that communication shapes the quality of our lives. So this model is something that applies to communication from the boardroom as I like to say to conversations across your kitchen table, they’re actionable practical tools and it’s what’s required to have good interactions, productive interactions and more meaningful relationships. And then what I’ve done is I created an online course called The Communication Protocol where businesses, small and large and all the employees or teams, whatever they want to include, can be involved in this. And you learn the relationship protocol model.

In addition to other skills, to have more productive meetings and quicker conflict resolution and a greater ability to build relationships, whether it’s internally for engagement or morale. And literally every corporation and person usually needs some tweaking, if not on a grander scale, an ability to increase their communication skills so they can reduce their stress and just feel better about themselves. I’m beyond excited to be able to offer this and reach more people and hopefully transform how people talk to each other, particularly when there are differences.

And as you know, with what’s been going on in the world in the last couple of years, we need to know how to talk to each other in a peaceful, even if I don’t like you, I need to know how to talk to you. And that’s part of what you learn in this program is not only how to build your confidence, but how to talk to people, even if you’re not too fond of them, or they’re difficult to work with that type of a thing. So it’s a super helpful program and it’s an eight lesson program. So it’s nothing that people can’t find time to do to transform how they feel about themselves and how they exist in their world.

Melinda Wittstock:         A lot of it just comes is down to conscious awareness, but also, there’s so many conversations that aren’t actually about the conversation. Do you know what I mean? So someone walks in with an old wound because they’ve been bullied in the playground when they were six, you know. Somebody else had a different sort of abusive situation. Somebody else feels like an outsider looking in for some reason. Somebody else is like all these old things are playing out and often the conversation isn’t actually about what’s being talked about.

Debra Roberts:                 Absolutely. And that’s why I need to know what my emotional triggers are. I need to know what my hot buttons are. And I need to know when you’ve hit on one because otherwise-

Melinda Wittstock:         Yeah. This is really important, this thing of triggering. Like I’ve learned it over time that anything that… I don’t get triggered that often anymore, but in the past, whenever I did, it was kind of like, oh, that’s interesting. What’s that telling me about myself. There must be something there I need to clear out.

Debra Roberts:                 That’s right. And because of my trauma background, it’s something that I’ve talked a lot about for a long time. When you have a strong reaction to something, notice if you have a physical reaction, what do you notice in your body? If your throat starts to close or you get a knot in your stomach or your chest gets tight, that means it’s really old, that what’s happening for you in that moment is not necessarily related to the interaction that you’re having right there. And these are the kinds of things that I teach in the program. There’s a whole lesson called life strategies for wellness, where I talk about even more so throughout the program I talk about self-awareness because it’s really the bottom line for everything. But when you have self-awareness and you know that you’re triggered, I give you a technique for how do you get out of that trigger in that. You don’t even have to know why in that moment, it’s not about therapy.

So to speak, it’s just about educating you. I’m triggered, what do I need to do now? Put your feet on the ground and think of the facts that are going on, things like that, that are simple tips that we all need to be able to not feel out of control and to feel that we can present ourselves in ways that are professional and more articulate and in a way that we want to come across. Not, oh crap. Why did I say that? I got so upset type of a thing. And I hear that so often. We feel out of control when that happens.

Melinda Wittstock:         We have a protocol now that we’ve learned at my fifth company Podopolo, which was a pandemic company, you know. We all came together, a team of 24 people now, during the pandemic all over the world, different cultures, all of that. So the communication is absolutely vital and we really have a conscious communication strategy. And one of the things as if you feel triggered like exactly how you’re describing, take three deep breaths, like at minimum, before anything comes out of your mouth, like three deep breaths, like pause and get into that parasympathetic part of your brain and ask a question. What did you mean by that? Always look into inquiry so you’re not in that lizard brain reactive mode, right?

Debra Roberts:                 Yes. Another tip I’ll add for you is when the person is processing it for themselves, when they walk away or even if they’re sitting there and they can’t concentrate, what are the facts of what just happened? Because when we’re reactive, it’s coming from an emotional place. So put your feet on the floor and think of the facts. What actually happened here. Did she say that to me, to be insulting? Well, has she been insulting in the past? No. So maybe I read into it. So the fact is that I don’t know how she meant it. I can’t assume that she meant that to be hurtful type of a thing. And I think when you can unwind something and realize that you are having a reaction, it helps us to gain control and to your point, take that pause to feel grounded again. And we all do it. Everybody gets triggered in some ways, but even it can be quiet or it can be loud, but it’s not a good feeling. And it’s not a good feeling when it happens at work for sure.

Melinda Wittstock:         I find even the choice of words. Like I’ve learned to avoid words like however, or but, or whatever. Because you know the other person knows the minute you say that, they know, they tense up because they know that something’s coming, that isn’t going to be good.

Debra Roberts:                 You could be negating something for sure, that’s right. Or giving them the bad news.

Melinda Wittstock:         Right. And so like just consciously and or just like avoiding any of those things, like keeping it sort of very positive, but really encouraging team members to just be always curious. Like if you don’t assume, don’t assume things.

Debra Roberts:                 I love that you have that strategy by the way. It’s really impressive. That’s something that I talk to companies about that you want to give everybody the benefit of the doubt that they want to have a good outcome too. And if that’s the case, then I’m going to approach you differently. And I’m going to give you a lot more room during our conversations rather than be as reactive as I might be if I’m looking at you a little bit differently and not looking at you with an open heart.

Melinda Wittstock:         There are some people who love to have conversations. There are kind of naturally extroverted. They enjoy connecting and having the give or take of a conversation that’s enjoyable to them. There are other people who are deeply introverted. I know I have a rather large tech team. Not all of them are really, really about long conversations or having big conversations. So how do you kind of hope people communicate effectively when they just actually don’t like having conversations?

Debra Roberts:                 Well, hopefully they’re not in a position in your company that they are required to talk a lot or give talks. But I do think that everybody needs to know that they’re a part of the team and that their voice is welcomed, starting from a place of letting people know out loud and saying to them directly that your opinion matters to us. And if there’s a problem we want to know about it, feedback is always welcomed. And if you have any questions, I don’t want you to ever ever hesitate to ask me, even if I seem like I’m busy and something else is going on, if what you have to tell me is important, I don’t want you to ever hesitate.

Because a lot of times the introverted person, I mean, sometimes the introverted person doesn’t really like talking and other times it comes from a place of insecurity or lack of feeling equipped to have some conversation. So if I give you free reign to come talk to me, that I will always engage with you to the best of my ability and appreciate that you made that effort, I’m encouraging them from the inside to know that it’s okay, and it’s a good thing to do. Otherwise I think if you don’t say something to that person, they’re not necessarily sure if they should say something because it doesn’t come as naturally to them. They can justify for themselves why they’re not having the conversation that otherwise they probably would have.

Melinda Wittstock:         So, the main reason people avoid conversations do you think just comes down to fear?

Debra Roberts:                 So I have a download on my website and it’s called tell me what to say. And I wrote that because I’ve narrowed down the reasons most people avoid conversations to three main reasons. One is that, and fear is in there for all of them, by the way. But one is that they don’t know how to start the conversation. So they genuinely do not know how to initiate a conversation and so they don’t have it. You would be surprised to know I should get a statistic on that somewhere, but it’s huge. How many people don’t talk about something because they don’t know how to begin the conversation. And what I would us to throw in there for that piece is then say that, I’m not sure how to start this, but we need to talk about this. That type of a thing is a great way to start.

So that’s one. Another is you’re afraid you’re going to hurt someone’s feelings. You’re not quite sure what words to use. You might hurt their feelings. And the other is you’re afraid it’s not going to go well, I might make things worse or what if it starts an argument? And so they don’t have conversations and they justify not communicating because they don’t know how to start. They’re afraid it’s going to hurt someone’s feelings or it’s not going to go well. And they’re all fear based and they’re all avoidant based. And until you have that stiff upper lip or whatever you need to have the information that you need to have the conversation, combined with the confidence and the self-awareness, the more you avoid, the more that disconnect and or build up inside of you is going to happen. So I encourage everybody to make an effort, to try to have some of those important conversations that you want to have and that download is super helpful. If anybody wants it, it’s complimentary on my website and gives you just great tips for getting those conversations out.

Melinda Wittstock:         Mm-hmm (affirmative). Absolutely. So I want to make sure, Debra, that people know the best way to find you to work with you. And tell me a little bit about how you do work. You did mention you work with companies and also individuals and whatnot. What’s the best way?

Debra Roberts:                 So at this point, the best way to reach me is through my website, therelationshipprotocol.com. And I’m not really doing as much one on one these days, but certainly, I have a course for businesses and I have a course for individuals and relationships. I’ve tried to figure out a way to reach more people and get the word out. And I do give a lot of talks. I’m happy to talk to people if I can help guide them in some direction, but there’s a lot of good resources on my website as well. And I have a book, it’s the original relationship protocol model called The Relationship Protocol: How to Talk, Defuse and Build Healthier Relationships.

And I believe hopefully first quarter I’m going to be coming out with a book that is more geared to the relationship protocol for the workplace. Having done a lot more work in the workplace in the last few years, seeing that the language needs to be a little different, which has been interesting. That’s been a really interesting awareness, by the way.

Melinda Wittstock:         Mm-hmm (affirmative). That’s wonderful. Well, I want to thank you for putting on your wings and flying with us today.

Debra Roberts:                 Thank you. Thanks so much.