866 Erin Haag:

Melinda Wittstock:

Coming up on Wings of Inspired Business:

Erin Haag:

The first piece of the puzzle is to work through these mindset issues. And we spend probably the first month really digging into these individual blocks. And because the pricing overhaul method is mathematically based and numbers do not lie, we use number evidence, mathematical evidence, to state what is true, to disprove those false beliefs that people have that are preventing them from raising their rates. And then step three is the rollout. And this is really where your life and business change.

Melinda Wittstock:

How do you price your goods and services? Chances are maybe they are less than the value of what you are providing. So many female founders easily fall into the trap of underpricing and over-delivering, and that’s why today pricing maven and self-proclaimed “math nerd” Erin Haag is here to talk us through her Pricing Overhaul® method.

Hi, I’m Melinda Wittstock and welcome to Wings of Inspired Business, where we share the inspiring entrepreneurial journeys, epiphanies, and practical advice from successful female founders, so you have everything you need at your fingertips to build the business and life of your dreams. I’m a five-time serial entrepreneur and I’m all about paying it forward, so this podcast is all about catalyzing an ecosystem where women entrepreneurs mentor, promote, buy from, and invest in each other. Because together we’re stronger, and we all soar higher when we fly together.

Today we meet an inspiring serial entrepreneur who leverages her advanced mathematical understanding from 20 years working with numbers, metrics, and pricing for large corporations and small business alike, to help entrepreneurs shift their mindsets around money and math, overhaul pricing for profitability, and earn more from your business than you thought possible.

Erin Haag is the creator of Pricing Overhaul®, on a mission to help women in business like you reach and reach beyond that first million.

Today we talk about why your prices reflect your self-worth, how to overcome any limiting beliefs about money to get confident about pricing the value you bring to your customers, vanity vs sanity metrics and why gross revenue is shouldn’t be your north star, plus why it’s time to surrender to letting data drive your strategy.

Erin will be here in a moment, and first,

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Do you know your numbers? I mean, really know them, along with the metrics that drive your business growth? A surprising number of founders shy away from the data-driven story the numbers can reveal to us and the story it tells about our companies.

Erin Haag is on a mission to move female founders from math phobia to financial fluency with her Pricing Overhaul methodology – from changing your mindset to a 35-35-30 split of gross revenue to managing expenses, payroll, and profit, Erin brings clarity to the financial fog often faced by entrepreneurs.

As she built all of her previous businesses, Erin noticed that many of her fellow entrepreneurs were haunted by a specter of disbelief, tales of inadequacy in the cryptic language of numbers, and harboring a fear that numerical mastery was beyond their grasp. Add to that, limiting beliefs about money and self-worth, and a fear that charging their worth would lead to a customer revolt.

Listen on because today we get into the numbers so you can transform your pricing strategy, gain confidence in your financial decisions, and provide you with some actionable insights to start putting the numbers to work for you and your dreams.

Let’s put on our wings with the inspiring Erin Haag and be sure to download the podcast app Podopolo so we can keep the conversation going after the episode.

INTERVIEW

Melinda Wittstock:

Erin, welcome to Wings.

Erin Haag:

Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

Melinda Wittstock:

I love to talk about things like pricing because I find that a lot of entrepreneurs, particularly women entrepreneurs, tend to underprice their goods and services. So, when you’re working with people to help them with their pricing, how much of this is mindset?

Erin Haag:

That is a loaded question. I would say the majority of it is the mindset. And then once we’re able to work through the different mindset blocks, then the math is an entirely different piece. But usually for most people, the mindset over can they charge more? Will their clients pay more? Are they even worth it? All of that kind of, like, mind trash talk has to be worked through and overcome before we can even touch the math.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, that’s one of the reasons why I asked it as a kind of starting question. Right. Because I think people struggle kind of with their own value on a deep, subconscious level. Is that what you find? I mean, what are the main mindset blocks?

Erin Haag:

Yeah, so there are a lot. So, I work specifically with female entrepreneurs and in service-based businesses mainly, and there are some key mindset blocks and issues that I see are a common thread among most female entrepreneurs. One is that they just don’t think that they’re good at math. They don’t believe that they can manage their numbers. And so, this whole mindset to start off, has them go into business blinded from the numbers and kind of digging their heads in the sand so that they don’t even look at it and they’re not approaching their business from a mathematical perspective. Others are. They just don’t feel like they can charge more, that their clients won’t pay more, that they can’t charge more than their competitors, that they can’t charge more than their personal budget will allow. A lot of it is also, especially in service-based businesses, that they’re providing a service that is much needed.

Erin Haag:

So, they want to make themselves accessible to everybody. And so, they think, well, I have a much-needed service. If I overcharge, I’m not making my services accessible, that they’re people pleasers. They’re afraid to raise prices because they’re worried their clients will get upset and leave. There is a whole bag mindset.

Melinda Wittstock:

One of the things I’ve learned over the years with all my businesses, some of which have been very product focused, others service focused or whatever, but it’s almost the higher the price you charge, the more the client or customer actually values what you do.

Erin Haag:

Yes. 100% of the time. Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s kind of counterintuitive, though, isn’t it? It’s hard to kind of understand that because I think we’re sort of afraid of the judgment of looking greedy or, I don’t know, all that kind of stuff. So how do you get people through all those kind of mindset blocks?

Erin Haag:

Well, there’s a process when I work with people, or there are certified Pricing Overhaul coaches. Pricing overhaul, by the way, is my trademarked method to help businesses overhaul their pricing for profitability, help the owner pay herself more while decreasing her hours. And so, when a pricing overhaul coach is working with a client for the first, I would say, month, we are digging deep into these mindset blocks, these issues, and really talking through it and uncovering what is true versus what is imagined in our heads.

Erin Haag:

And the first piece of the puzzle is to work through these mindset issues. And what we really do is we spend probably the first month, sometimes a little bit more if needed, really digging into these individual blocks. For everybody, it’s different. And analyzing what is imagined and what is true.

Erin Haag:

And because the pricing overhaul method is mathematically based and numbers do not lie, we use number evidence, mathematical evidence, to state what is true, to disprove those false beliefs that people have that are preventing them from raising their rates.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right? Yeah. So, what are some of those things? What’s the method?

Erin Haag:

So the method is a three part method. The first one is all about shifting the mindset, really getting you to a point where you are confident and willing to overhaul your prices. Part two is the actual math. It’s the overhaul your prices. It’s where we do the profit analysis. We calculate your monthly client value, we calculate your capacity, we do all of the calculations. And then step three is the rollout. And this is really where your life and business change.

Erin Haag:

How do you roll out these new prices? And how do you begin to move through the world and through your business as a new premium service provider at premium rates? Typically, a pricing overhaul is like a twelve-week process from start to finish. And of course, the mindset is constantly being worked on and through throughout the entire process because you certainly can’t overcome an entire lifetime of mindset issues or blocks in one month. Right. So we might do some math. And the math says this is how much you have to charge for this. And then all of a sudden, guess what? All of those previous mindset issues are coming right back to the surface. So, okay, let’s walk through this. Let’s talk through this.

Erin Haag:

Let’s look at the numbers. What do the numbers say to be true? And then we’re able to continue moving on. So, it’s kind of like a forward, back, forward, back process as we do a complete pricing overhaul, right?

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, I mean, there’s the other aspect of this, too, that a lot of people confuse their time, like they price their time as opposed to the value of what they were creating. So, let’s get into value-based pricing, because, say, for instance, if your solution is going to save a business a million dollars or it’s going to make that business an extra million dollars or more, what should your pricing be? I find a lot of entrepreneurs don’t really think that way. They think about pricing their effort or pricing time as opposed to the value.

Erin Haag:

I don’t care for value-based pricing and I don’t care for hour-based pricing. I don’t think that you should charge based on the hours of time that you’re trading because you don’t want to trade time for money. I also don’t think that you should set your pricing based on value because value is different to everybody. Right. What I think is valuable is different than what you think is valuable. And there’s really no way to put a concrete number or price tag on the, let’s say, perceived value of something. What I like to do instead is to ask the business owner to dream up her ideal business, dream up how much money she wants to be paying herself, how much money she wants to have in her profit savings accounts, cash on hand at all times, how many weeks per year she wants to take off.

Erin Haag:

The majority of my clients are only working 36 to 42 weeks per year. None of this like only two weeks paid vacation. I want them to dream up this ideal business scenario. And then based on that, we’re saying, okay, in order to get this dream business, your capacity for clients is this. And in order for that dream business to be possible, this is how much money must be coming into your business every single month. Now, knowing that we have those two figures, how do we price your services in order to guarantee that you hit that number based on your capacity, and we calculate a figure called your monthly client value, how much each client must be worth to you financially, on a monthly basis or on an annual basis, depending on the business. And so your most utilized service or offer, your mid-tier offer, typically has to be the same price point of that monthly client value.

Erin Haag:

And that’s how we do the prices.

Melinda Wittstock:

And then obviously you got to get used to accepting a no, we can’t afford that. Or qualifying your customers better that they can fit your price point.

Erin Haag:

And what I have found is that there are plenty of clients out there. There is enough business to go around, and the clients who are ideal for you are going to find you and are going to buy in and the clients who don’t fit within your prices. And I’m not saying that every business has to go super extreme. High premium prices. In fact, I’ve worked with businesses before that in transient communities. One client in particular was in the DC area, which is highly seasonal, highly transient, simply because of the governmental sessions and people coming in and out. And so, her model was different than another business.

Erin Haag:

And in fact, we actually had to decrease her prices, but increase volume. So it’s like a puzzle. And there are plenty of clients out there who are going to fit into your ideal business model.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. So it’s just a confidence to do that. I mean, I want to go back to value based pricing in a way because I know what’s worked very effectively for me in different businesses is more of a consultative, or some people call it an enrollment sale, where you’re asking a lot of questions of your customer to show them the kind of before and after and get them to literally tell you what it would mean to their business if they were able to succeed with your solution. And often, based on that, you can kind of intuit what the right kind of pricing is. I know that it can be kind of nebulous, but you definitely need to elicit from a potential client what that impact is going to be if you’re going to take that value-based approach.

Erin Haag:

Yeah, I would say that you definitely have to build the value of when you’re selling. The pricing and the sales process are two completely separate things. The pricing comes first, and then the sales strategy is how you build the value and show the value of the service that you are offering at the price point that you already calculated, right?

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. So you’re saying basically, okay, decide your ideal and then go for it and then work it out. So you’re providing the value that would.

Erin Haag:

Justify the price 100%, because when you do it that way, I have found that I have a greater buy in from the owner of their new prices because the prices are based on math. Like two plus two is always going to be four. You cannot argue with it. And so even if the business owner is feeling scared or hesitant, or they have insecurities over the new prices, what they are confident in is that the math told them what they have to charge. And if they decide that, they just don’t have the guts to charge what the math tells them to charge. Okay, you can make a decision as a business owner, and you can say, I’m going to charge less because I’m more comfortable with that. But understand, as a business owner, you are now making a choice that, okay, if I’m going to charge less, that means that I either have to work more, I either have to take on more clients, or I have to pay myself less. And you are completely capable of making that choice for yourself.

Erin Haag:

But what it does is it just shows you that if you want this ideal business, this is how you have to do it. And if you’re not willing to do that and charge those rates, okay, at what cost?

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. So it really is making you a lot more conscious of this. I find sometimes people, speaking of math, a lot of entrepreneurs are afraid of their numbers. Like, they don’t even track their numbers. They don’t even know how they’re doing. Right.

Erin Haag:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

They don’t know what their margins are. They haven’t really thought about how to make their revenue profitable, or just afraid of looking at a dashboard or afraid of looking at results. What is that kind of number resistance. Do you think that people have? Is it just fear?

Erin Haag:

Yeah, I think it’s fear. I think that we place way too much of our self-worth in what the numbers tell us. And so, if the numbers tell us that we’re not performing well, that means that we suck as business owners. And what I work with my clients to do is to say that your self-worth and your value as a business owner and your skill set has zero to do with what the numbers tell you. The numbers are simply a roadmap and a path to say that, hey, if this number or this KPI is lower, then that means that the area of opportunity is here, and it’s just giving you direction. Like the numbers give you direction. It makes owning a business so much easier because you’re not having to make decisions based on feelings, emotions, or fear and all of the things, you’re making it based on actual mathematical data. And when clients who are very numbers averse start working with me, they get to a point where they feel so much relief in the numbers.

Erin Haag:

It’s kind of like when you have a messy closet and you’ve got all of the crap in the closet just piling up. You’re afraid to open the door for the first time because things are going to topple out, and you’re going to have moments where you’re looking at things that bring up all kinds of emotions. You’re going to be overwhelmed and anxious. But once you get through that basic closet clean out, you love opening up your closet to see a neatly organized closet, and it makes you feel good, right? And so that’s how I work with my clients. We do a complete financial closet clean out.

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Melinda Wittstock:

And we’re back with Erin Haag, self-proclaimed “math nerd”, serial entrepreneur and creator of Pricing Overhaul.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, 100%. That makes so much sense. So what was it, Erin, that got you interested in the numbers? I mean, you’re a self-proclaimed math nerd, and you’ve been doing this for 20 years. Corporations, small businesses alike. What was the spark that got you into all things math and metrics?

Erin Haag:

Oh, my goodness, I wish I could tell you. The funny thing is, I was a musical theater major in college. This is a completely different path. I would have never, ever thought that I would be down this road. But math was always something that came very easily to me very naturally, I think, in numbers. I kind know problem solve based on numbers. And so, when I started working in corporate America and the numbers were how major corporations run their businesses, and it just came naturally to me. I was laid off from my corporate sales job in what year was that? 2008, during the recession.

Erin Haag:

And I just decided that I was done making money for other people and opened up a business. And when I opened up my first business, I went into it having worked in corporate, using only numbers to make business decisions. And I was like, well, this is all I know, so this is how I’m going to run my business. And so I opened a Pilates and yoga studio, and I ran it like a corporation does, and it was extremely profitable and extremely successful. Meanwhile, I’m seeing my colleagues, who are also owning studios, making zero money, working their tails off and wondering, how in the world are you doing it? And I was like, wow, if people just had the power of math and they were comfortable with the numbers, everything in their business would be so much easier for them. And it just kind of naturally, organically evolved to now I have the pricing overhaul. Coaches can become certified in the pricing overhaul method. I wrote a book about the method.

Erin Haag:

I never in a million years thought that this is where it would end up. Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

There’s such a big connection, though, too, between music and math. Yeah, really kind of interesting because you think music is really creative, but math is actually creative, but a lot of people don’t experience it that way, I suppose, in school. And then you have the other thing. How much of this is part of the mindset issue with women in particular? That whole thing that starts somewhere in maybe third or fourth grade where girls start saying, oh, I’m bad at math.

Erin Haag:

Well, it’s not just in third and fourth grade. I mean, there are studies have shown that parents, even to babies and toddlers, they play differently with their girls than they do with their boys. And the types of play for boys typically is different and create skills that are more math based, science based. And then you move into school, and teachers typically encourage girls in areas of art and areas of social studies, and boys are more encouraged in areas of math and science and engineering. And there’s just this overall conditioning right now. The one that is killing me, I can’t even say killing me softly because it’s killing me loudly, is every time I see a reel about hashtag girl math, it drives me nuts. And I’m like, we need to stop perpetuating the false narrative that girls are bad at math because there is zero evidence to show that girls are any less capable at doing math than boys are.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, this whole thing, like, I’m bad at math, stops a lot of girls and women from, say, technology and coding and things like that, which is odd because coding is very much a language skill, in fact. But it keeps a lot of women out of Stem, out of founding technology businesses and such.

Erin Haag:

Right. It’s why the first chapter of my book is titled, You Are Good at Math, because I’m just trying to convince women that you are good at math. Like, you do it every day, you’re good at it. So when a female business owner goes into business and she thinks that she’s bad at math and she thinks that she can’t manage her numbers or manage her money, she then leaves things up to her typically male accountant or her husband or her father. And in doing so, she is giving up her power to somebody who doesn’t own her business. And I’m just on a mission to convince women that they can actually do it. In fact, there are a lot of studies that show that when it comes to investing, especially women outperform men in investments. So, we are naturally capable of this.

Erin Haag:

And when you get over the fact that you think that you’re bad at math, when you accept that, no, I’m actually capable of this, and, oh, my goodness, I enjoy it, it changes everything. The best thing for me is when a client who is like, I hate math. I hate numbers. I hate spreadsheets. This is overwhelming. Crying on the first call starts emailing me links to the spreadsheets that she has created, because it’s spreadsheet day, and she’s so excited to see what the numbers are revealing about the profitability of her business.

Melinda Wittstock:

So this is really very much a work in progress. What do you find? The before and after is when you’re working with your clients.

Melinda Wittstock:

Give me a couple of kind of case studies of how this work has really changed things for a lot of the women that you work with.

Erin Haag:

Oh, my goodness. There are so many stories. I would say, in general, the client who comes to me is exhausted. She’s overworked, she’s burned out. She’s not making enough money. She went into business because she loves her craft. She’s an artist, she is an amazing service provider. But, however, many years down the road, she’s burned out, and she just doesn’t know how she can continue because she’s not making any money.

Erin Haag:

She’s stressed about when’s the cash going to come in? How am I going to pay this? And it’s kind of like a make it or break it moment for her. And by the time we have gone through this whole process, and we have worked together for a while, she’s literally voxer messaging me on a Monday because she did her money Monday with how much money to the penny is in each account, what her margins are, how close she is to reaching her goal. She is updating her spreadsheets every single month, so she knows where she is. She’s excited about the money that she’s making. She’s paying herself more, she’s working less. It’s literally a complete transformation. It’s almost like a different person. And I can’t tell you how many times a client will say to me, I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I love my spreadsheets.

Melinda Wittstock:

One of the other things that I’ve noticed is a lot of entrepreneurs really focus on top line revenue as a metric. And they’re all excited. You see it on Facebook or wherever, like, I just had a million-dollar launch. But what they don’t tell you is it cost them $999,000 to get there, or perhaps even more, and their revenue thing is actually a loss for the business. Do You find there’s really a gap in understanding how to really decide what margin you want?

Erin Haag:

Yes. So, I had a recent post where I said, gross revenue is a vanity metric. And it’s true because you can have. I’ve actually worked with seven figure businesses where the owner is paying herself less than an owner of a business that’s only generating a quarter of a million dollars. This is, like, true story. What I help my clients to understand is, okay, you would love to increase your gross revenue, but what’s more important is you want to keep more of that revenue. And so there’s a standard for healthy margins. And my benchmark is a 35, 35, 30 split of gross revenue.

Erin Haag:

Where 35% of your gross revenue is allocated towards your operating expenses, 35% of your gross revenue is allocated towards your payroll expense, including your owner salary. If you are an owner operator, and that leaves a minimum 30% profit. And then what do you do with the profit? There are many different things that you can do. Reinvest back into the business, pay down debt, you can pay yourself owner bonuses. And so, we play within these margins, and we first conduct a profit analysis to see where you are. And that is shocking for most people, because on average, most of my clients are at a 4% profit margin. When they start working with me. That’s average four to 6%.

Erin Haag:

And they’re not even paying themselves an owner salary. And they’re like, wait a minute, that’s supposed to be 30% and I’m supposed pay myself how much and have that within a 35% payroll percentage. And I’m like, yes, and this is why you have to overhaul your prices, because we have to bake all of these margins into your prices in order for you to be able to make the money that you want to make. So that’s how I work with my clients within that 35, 35, 30 benchmark, right?

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. It’s so vital. Obviously, being the pricing maven here, how has that informed the pricing of your own business?

Erin Haag:

Oh, yeah. Listen, you have to take your own advice. And there have been times in my business know things aren’t going the way that I want them to. And then somebody like my business manager will say, Erin, you need to take your own advice. And it’s like, oh, yeah, duh. I did create this know, and so even me, the person who created the pricing overhaul, constantly puts my business through a pricing overhaul, constantly reevaluates. I work with coaches, I have mentors. So it’s an ever evolving.

Erin Haag:

It’s not. Hey, you do a price and overhaul once and you’re good to go every quarter. You’ve got to make some adjustments, possibly. Did that answer your question?

Melinda Wittstock [00:30:24]:

100%.  So, take me through how you use pricing overhaul on yourself.

Erin Haag:

Okay, so I actually am a serial entrepreneur and currently I own four businesses. Yes, I know, I’m crazy. I have my pricing overhaul consulting business, and then a spin-off of that is called pricing overhaul academy. Coaches can get certified in the pricing overhaul method and become certified pricing overhaul coaches and work with their own clients and their own businesses. So that’s actually a separate legal entity. Then I have luxury and business retreats, which I call my fun money. And that has actually evolved into more than just my fun money. But every time I seem to open up a new business or I provide or offer a new service, I’m putting that business through the pricing overhaul, which is why for my retreat, business, luxury and business retreats, which is only man, I started that in.

Erin Haag:

I had the idea to start it October of 2021. The reason my retreats are so profitable, and I make so much money from them, it’s now its own legal entity, is because I did my first retreat after putting the retreat through a pricing overhaul. And so I know how to price retreats for profitability. I use it for all of my businesses.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh, that’s amazing. And obviously, the fact that you can run four businesses at the same time means that you’re not pricing your time.

Erin Haag:

No, I’m not. I mean, I am very fortunate in that I’ve created my ideal work schedule and I travel all the time with my family. I have a lot of support from a family domestic perspective. Let me take this back. I don’t want to say this. I’m very fortunate in that I’ve been able to, thanks to the pricing overhaul, create an ideal business that works for me and my family and allows me to work the hours that I want to work, travel when I want to travel, and really be there with my family.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. Wonderful. That’s fantastic. Now I want to make sure that people know how to find you and work with you. Like if they need a pricing overhaul or they’re interested in being certified their coach and they want to be certified in this method, what are the best ways?

Erin Haag:

Yeah, so you can go to pricingoverhaul.com to work with me or to work with a pricing overhaul coach. If you want to become a certified pricing overhaul coach, you can go to pricingoverhaulacademy.com. And we actually have our next cohort starting January 29 of this year. So, we are still in enrollment for that. And if you’re interested in coming on retreat with me. So, luxury and business retreats for female entrepreneurs, but also coaching for retreat professionals. So, you can come on retreat with me. I offer coaching also to help you plan price, promote your retreats or build retreats as an additional revenue stream into the ecosystem of your existing business.

Erin Haag:

You can find me@luxurynbusinessretreats.com fantastic.

Melinda Wittstock:

And so, I know that you have a free opt in for people who want to kind of check you out. What’s the best way for people to get that? And we’ll make sure that it’s in the show notes as well. But tell us about the free opt in.

Erin Haag:

Awesome. It’s a free guide with my top five tips for pricing and packaging your services. And it’s basically everything that you need to know to start to think about how you price your services, how you package them, so that you can start to. I don’t like that. You and I are having fun today, aren’t we? Okay. I’ll just keep it short and sweet. I don’t have to go into a lot of detail. Yes.

Erin Haag:

So, I’m offering my free guide, the top five tips for pricing, packaging your services. It’s a really good start to analyze your current pricing structure up against an ideal pricing structure that promotes profitability.

Melinda Wittstock:

Fantastic. Well, Erin, thank you so much for putting on your wings and flying with us.

Erin Haag:

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Melinda Wittstock:

Erin Haag is the CEO and founder of Pricing Overhaul. Make sure you check the show notes to take advantage of her offers to help you align your pricing with your value.

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