945 Esther Wildenberg:

Wings of Inspired Business Podcast EP945 – Host Melinda Wittstock interviews Esther Wildenberg

Melinda Wittstock:

Coming up on Wings of Inspired Business:

Esther Wildenberg:

I think we’re undermined from the moment we’re born in so many ways by our parents and by teachers and friends and family members. And then, you know, look at the media, look at social media, look at the government and politics. Like, we are getting moved in so many directions that you have to be very grounded and strong to stay your own course, follow your own dreams and live your life on your terms and not let other people redirect you all the time.

Melinda Wittstock:

How do you go from undermined to unstoppable? Esther Wildenberg always dreamed of sharing the lessons she learned on her journey from climbing the corporate ladder to taking the entrepreneurial leap and as her 50th birthday approached, she set her sights on helping women truly step into their power in business. The result, a top-selling book called The Undermined Soul and a renewed passion for helping female founders change the game.

Melinda Wittstock:

Hi, I’m Melinda Wittstock and welcome to Wings of Inspired Business, where we share the inspiring entrepreneurial journeys, epiphanies, and practical advice from successful female founders … so you have everything you need at your fingertips to build the business and life of your dreams. I’m all about paying it forward as a five-time serial entrepreneur, so I started this podcast to catalyze an ecosystem where women entrepreneurs mentor, promote, buy from, and invest in each other. Because together we’re stronger, and we all soar higher when we fly together and lift as we climb.

Melinda Wittstock:

Today we meet an inspiring entrepreneur who climbed her way up the corporate ladder as one of just a handful of women to become the multinational’s CEO before she took the leap into entrepreneurship as the co-founder of the fast-growing Codebreaker Technologies. Esther Wildenberg learned firsthand why female attributes like emotional intelligence, multitasking, intuition and relationship-building are the superpowers that make women the biggest asset class with the potential to remake business as we know it. 

Melinda Wittstock:

Esther will be here in a moment, and first:

[PROMO CREDIT]

If you’re enjoying this podcast and what you learn from all the inspiring women I interview every week, please go ahead, hit subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and share it with your friends. We really appreciate ratings and reviews on Apple and Spotify – it helps more entrepreneurs like you find the wisdom, tips, and epiphanies they need to grow their business. It makes a difference. Thank you. 

Melinda Wittstock:

I remember coming home as a 6-year-old after going door-to-door selling tickets for my show, asking my dad where we could find 100 chairs, and my grandmother piping in, “Melinda, you’re disruptive”. Somehow in that second my pride in my accomplishment in persuading a hundred neighbors to each give me a dollar was punctured like a balloon wallowing in shame. I didn’t understand her comment, and it took me years to process it. And yes, I am disruptive, in a good way, as an entrepreneur with each of my businesses over the years taking on entrenched interests to find a better way.

My story gets to the heart of how as young girls and women we get undermined in all sorts of subtle and unsubtle ways until we internalize the false beliefs that hold us back.

That’s why I’m so excited to share this conversation with entrepreneurial and executive phenomenon Esther Wildenberg, who chose to share her own journey with a book called The Undermined Soul, a rallying cry for women everywhere to reclaim their power and live life on their own terms. Esther says women are the world’s “new asset class”, as entrepreneurs delivering higher returns and greater longevity despite receiving less than 2% of venture capital.  She says it’s time to own our own ambition, support other women meaningfully, and break the cycle that keeps too many women playing small. 

Esther also shares how she and her spouse Cheri Tree co-founded and built the fast-growing company Codebreaker Technologies, a revolutionary personality coding platform to help businesses win more sales faster, and what it was like pitching male VCs as a lesbian couple, plus the stark contrasts between doing business in Europe vs the United States, and much more.

Melinda Wittstock:

This is a great one, so let’s put on our wings with the inspiring Esther Wildenberg. 

[INTERVIEW]

Melinda Wittstock:

Esther, welcome to Wings.

Esther Wildenberg:

Thank you so much. Melinda.

Melinda Wittstock:

The Undermined Soul. What a great book for our times. Tell me, what was the spark that, that, that led you to write it?

Esther Wildenberg:

You know, the funny thing is I, for a long time, I wanted to write about my life and my lessons learned in business, in life, and, and then, you know, it’s never a good time. And then I realized last year, next year, so this January, I turned 50 and I said, I want to write the book before I turn 50. And my drive was my 4-year-old son. At the time he just turned 5. I wanted to leave him a legacy beyond like pictures in a photo album that he knows my life story and who I was as an entrepreneur and businesswoman and how I overcame my obstacles and gifted him as a legacy. And then people were really intrigued by the title. I just published it and it’s like I’m getting so, such a great feedback. I’m like, wow, I didn’t know it would go that far.

Esther Wildenberg:

And I think it’s going to go far and wide. But it’s just a topic that relates to every human being and especially women. I think we’re undermined from the moment we’re born in so many ways by our parents and by teachers and friends and family members. And then, you know, look at the media, look at social media, look at the government and politics. Like, we are getting moved in so many directions that you have to be very grounded and strong to stay your own course. And yeah, so I wrote it in my book. There’s 18 chapters about being undermined and how to move from being undermined into stepping into your power and follow your own dreams and live your life on your terms and not let other people redirect you all the time.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s interesting when I talk to female founders and entrepreneurs because I think we’re more acutely aware of this because there are so many things like entrepreneurship is hard enough for men, for anyone…

Esther Wildenberg:

Right, Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

…For women, there’s an extra degree of difficulty because of that kind of undermining process.

Esther Wildenberg:

Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

Maybe it’s more acute. Like when I talk to women on this podcast, almost everybody has a really keen appreciation of this and all the things that they’ve had to overcome. So, so help me link it to your entrepreneurial journey in a way of what are some of the things that in building code breaker technologies and all the other things that you’ve done, what were some of the specific ways that you felt undermined along the way?

Esther Wildenberg:

There’s so many ways, I think what I noticed, I’m from the Netherlands. 

Esther Wildenberg:

I think in general there’s a little bit more respect for women than here in America. That’s my observation. And when I built my business, I all about building strong relationships. I worked at Fortune 500 companies, and I got many projects in my consulting business. But I was always at BET with men. And then I realized women are so much smarter than men and they’re so much better in relationship building and delivering because they tended to be very perfectionist. That’s also what’s holding them back, but it also gives them sometimes an advantage. And I knew that I had to play the man in a way that I know men wanted to be played at.

Esther Wildenberg:

So, you just have to play the game. I learned to play the game in a man’s world. The downside of that is that to survive in a man’s world, you have to become way more masculine. It sounds weird. People say you have to be feminine. They like sexy women. They don’t take any sexy women serious. Their mind goes in a different direction.

Esther Wildenberg:

So, you have to become the one they want to go to bed at and they want to basically argue and debate with. And then eventually when you’re strong enough, they want to work with you. And that was what I learned back in the day in the Netherlands, when I moved to the United States in 2014 and started to build a business with my wife, Codebreaker Technologies. Not just being a women owned business, but then being a same sex couple is like, wow, that’s a whole other thing here in the United States. So, the comments we had and the things of adversity and diversity we absolutely had to overcome is freaking not so, in my opinion. Well, if I would have been a man, I would have got the deal right away or the opportunity right away. And now I have to prove myself all the time. Well, I already proved myself for 50 years, right?

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. I mean, exactly. I mean, it is, it is so much harder. And especially now because, you know, there was all this progress. It seemed like we were all going in the right direction. And then in the us just the backlash towards women, people of color, gay people. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s crazy, right? Is that, how is that impacting you right now? I mean, not at all.

Esther Wildenberg:

Like, not at all. Because I grew up in the Netherlands where it was the first gay marriage, first gay pride. I grew up in a culture with ethnicities and cultures and languages from all over the world. Every skin color was in my classroom. I, I had, I never thought about it in a way when I moved here, like farmer. There’s this whole black and white thing is going on and skin color and bullying and abuse of being gay. And I’m like, wow. I’ve never experienced that when I lived in the Netherlands.

Esther Wildenberg:

So, the first few years of it like wow. Now this country is like four decades behind.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yes.

Esther Wildenberg:

And I also get no. Those people can have opinions and not everybody is your cup of tea. And if you think my business is amazing or our technology is awesome, but you don’t want to do business because we’re women owned or same sex, that’s your loss, right? You need me more than I need you. So, there’s enough people that want to work with us. We have hundreds of thousands of customers, thousands of certified licensed trainers over the, over the past decade. We have clients in so many countries, 50 plus countries. And you know, the funny thing is most of our clientele is women. But of course, it’s kind of logical because we’re women own business.

Esther Wildenberg:

But also, our technology is based in personality science and women do personal development a lifetime and men only average until the age of 26. So that’s why I think women are way smarter and women are gonna take over the world because they are just way more advanced. They just always have this time limited belief in their mind that when they have children they cannot do it all. And so that’s also why I wanted to write the book. Like, it’s not that when you have a family that you cannot be the one that’s gonna be shining and live your dream. It just requires a little bit better of time management and having great agreements with your partner. But I believe women are the new asset class and that’s also why we partnered with FFI. That’s the Female Founders Institute where the founder is a very successful businesswoman exited for a lot of money.

Esther Wildenberg:

Millions and millions and millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars in her previous company. She’s in her early 40s, extremely connected, but only wants to work with women owned businesses because she says women are the, the new asset class. I think it’s very powerful. And she says only 2% of venture capital goes to women owned businesses, 92% goes to men. And well, we all know that women are the future and driving very successful businesses that still the money goes to men. So that became her passion, and we partnered with her, we’re aligning and it’s very exciting and it totally fits because I think 80% of our clientele is women, women owned businesses.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, I think that’s so true. You know, when you think of just even some of the stats, okay, so under, we get under 2% of venture money. I mean these are, these are the types of businesses that would qualify for venture. So, if they’re women founded less than 2% and that’s a number that hasn’t changed in three decades. But meantime, so much research shows that women return on average $0.60 more per, per dollar invested.

Esther Wildenberg:

Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

We also 90% of us survive past the five-year mark, right? Where so many, you know, male teams, you know, flounder. Right, right. And so, you, you think in a VC’s mind it’s like, dude, you’re here burning, you’re leaving all this money on the table, like what is going on with you?

Esther Wildenberg:

You know, I think that the men are still stuck in that it’s the business world is a men’s world and that women are more fragile or more emotional or have other responsibilities. And maybe they do, but it’s also their strength because they can actually multitask, they can organize better than any men. They have a bigger picture overview about what’s going to happen in the next week, month, year, because that’s how their brain is wired. And maybe they’re more emotional, but it also makes them better power partners for their relationship currency. You know, their high emotional intelligence. Like women by nature have higher emotional intelligence than men. And it always, it comes back to the timeline. I don’t know if you notice, but it’s all about physical intelligence.

Esther Wildenberg:

Basically, when you’re born, it’s all about your physical growth, right? You learn to crawl and then walk and then run. And then the moment you go to school, it’s all about your intellect, your IQ, right until you finish school. And then you start working, it becomes about your emotional intelligence. Now that’s average on the age 24, 25, 26. Six is also when most brain are developed is at the age of 26, women at 24, men at 26. And then it’s your whole career it’s about emotional intelligence. Are you good with people? And then we get to this age in our 40s, 50s, we start tapping into our spiritual intelligence and realize what do I really want to do in my lifetime? What is my passion? What is the legacy I want to leave? What is my life purpose? Like a lot of those things are coming in the next phase. Now men at an average top personal development at the age of 26, literally when their brain is fully developed is when they stop.

Esther Wildenberg:

And women are developing for a lifetime. So, when you go to seminars or workshops, it’s like 80% women in the room.

Melinda Wittstock:

Exactly. Because they’re growing. Like, that’s why I see so many more women doing amazing things when they’re in like, in terms of entrepreneurship, when they’re in their 40s, 50s, 60s. 

Melinda Wittstock:

I noticed that women really tend to come into their own in entrepreneurship later in life. And it’s perhaps because they’re over. They’re busy overcoming all the things you write about in the undermined soul. But by their 40s, 50s and 60s, I don’t know whether it’s just that we don’t have any F’s left to give. You know what I mean?

Esther Wildenberg:

I think it’s still the tradition that is put into us by our parents that you have to family, you have to have kids, right? And then children take a lot of your energy. I know I have a 5-year-old boy, and he counts for 10. And when he’s home, he wants me to play with him and I’m his toy and he wants attention and he, you cannot do anything else. So, you have very limited time. But it’s also that at the age when you turn 40, 50, that people realize they’re halfway of their life, right? Oh my gosh, I’m halfway. Is this the life I want to live? And also, that’s also the age group where the big losses start. Sometimes divorce or bankruptcy or cancer diagnosis or loss of a loved one, that really hits home, that they start thinking, oh my gosh, I’m in my 40s. Is this, is this what life is all about? Is that age group that starts to think about life deeper? Because we all think we have forever in our 20s and 30s and you start to build a business in a family.

Esther Wildenberg:

And you know, we think we know it all, we think we’re on track and then we hit 40s and suddenly it’s like, wait a moment. So many factors that it’s, it’s the awakening that happens around that age is what I’ve seen with women and our women business owners that are our clients, the majority of them are in their 60s and 70s. Interesting that we have thriving businesses and sometimes even starting a business, we have clients that are in their 80s running a business. And I’m like, but in Europe you don’t see that, right? So, it’s very An American culture thing. But I think most of our clients are literally now we have from in 20s till 80. Right. But if I look at the, the big bulk, I think the majority of them are in late in the 50s, 60s, and then we have 70s. Yeah, it’s interesting, but that’s.

Esther Wildenberg:

Women feel free to start living their life on their terms. So, I think there is a gap that we have to close because they can start doing that way younger. They should start doing that at 20, 23, 24, when they come off out of college or university and start their business and they don’t need to wait 100%.

Melinda Wittstock:

I think it’s very interesting now too, with so many women really, such as yourself, really succeeding in entrepreneurship in, in all the age ranges. But particularly women in their 40s, 50s and 60s. Because everybody, I remember me in my 20s and 30s, I was in such a rush. I thought life would be over if I didn’t, you know, have the big exit, you know, like, you know, when I was like 30 or whatever or 40. And, and like it, it’s, it’s not true. So, we’re just, by being out there, it’s like giving up permission. Like, no, you can achieve huge things.

Melinda Wittstock:

Like I think of any women world leader, you think of like Golda Meir or Margaret Thatcher or whoever, right? They all came into their own in their 60s and 70s.

Esther Wildenberg:

Yeah, yeah, most women do. But I think women are, they, they develop so much. They. I think it’s the perfectionism or still that battle that I’m not good enough because men have an advantage, you know, and then I think it’s still the, our parents, how we were raised, that put a lot of that blockage on us. I think the girls that are getting raised now, they’re way more free-spirited and I see a lot of young entrepreneurs stepping up. So, I hope it’s a positive trend that continues. But it’s also the programming from our parents and ancestors and that we carry with us. And that’s why I was determined as a teenager that I wanted to break the cycle of my family tree.

Esther Wildenberg:

I’m the first entrepreneur in the whole family tree. I’m the first entrepreneur.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s so interesting, right. Where you see entrepreneurship is really the way to make your life how you want it to be. You think of it in a way, it’s a real tool of empowerment for yourself as a woman.

Esther Wildenberg:

Right? It is, it is. And it’s, you know, I just hope that all the women that are listening are really stepping not just in their pants, but in their power. Because we need very powerful women to build strong businesses and a culture where everybody can thrive. And it’s. Men have their egos leading the way. And I still love working with men. Most of my career, I worked with men so I can work smoothly with men. No issues at all.

Esther Wildenberg:

I love working with men, but they have to be high, emotional, intelligent. You know, it’s. That’s just one of my requirements.

Melinda Wittstock:

No, I, I’ve, I’ve evolved in a very similar way. There was something you said kind of earlier in our chat where you were talking about the balance of masculine and feminine, feminine. So, there’s a lot of things in the archetypal feminine that really are a unique advantage for us to double down on, whether it’s that, you know, multitasking, more matrix brain, emotional intelligence, all these sorts of things which we can really double down on. But on the archetypal masculine side, the, the, you know, strength, getting things done, you know, all of that. How have you felt that you’ve balanced that yourself? And, and, and what are your insights about the right way forward for women to harness both of these energies?

Esther Wildenberg:

No, I think the world we’re living in, it’s not easy. And, and feminine energy is not the dress and high heels and makeup and all that stuff. Right. I, it’s always funny because I meet sometimes women in a dress and high heels, and they’re 10 times more masculine than I am when I just wear my clothes and my sneakers. Right. So, it’s a, it’s an energy. Besides the way you present yourself and your image and identity, it’s an, it’s an. Mostly an energy thing.

Esther Wildenberg:

I think a lot of women are off. I’m for sure not where I want to be because I learned to become so masculine. In getting the business done and building a business and working with men, it’s, you know, you become tougher. But I still build any relationship based on my feminine energy in my nurture side and really want to impact the world and help people and build power, partnerships instead of just one time, collaboration opportunities. And the feminine part, sometimes I, I just trigger myself, okay, I’m gonna do something I’ve never done before. So last year I went to Greece to do the flying dress photo shoot. And literally the second time in my adult life that I was wearing a dress. My first marriage, I wore a dress.

Esther Wildenberg:

My second marriage with Sherry, I created, Designed my own suit. And so, I felt like I have to do this before I turn 50, I suddenly I had something like before 50, I want to wear a dress. So, we went to Santorini, and I did the flying dress photo shoot. And automatically it forces you to step into your femininity. You cannot stand there like a guy in that dress. It just looks weird. So. But the first few pictures, it was hard.

Esther Wildenberg:

And then suddenly it became a natural, just energy. Like it was funny to just feel my body shift and my energy shift by just doing something out of my norm, out of my natural way of being. And after that I realized, wow, it’s actually really nice to tap more into it. So ever since I’ve been really focused on more my feminine side and it’s. I read a lot about it, and I talk on my retreats of other women about it, and they all struggle with it. It’s kind of become a survival to become more masculine. That’s kind of interesting. But yeah, it’s a.

Esther Wildenberg:

Something we have to work on for sure too.

Melinda Wittstock:

Because I think a lot of men, I don’t know how they perceive us sometimes. I mean, this multitasking ability, I wonder whether that’s kind of actually intimidating for them, whether they, whether they sort of fear it because we’re. We can actually.

Esther Wildenberg:

No, they fear it, and they are envious of it and they don’t know how to deal with it and they’re jealous of it because we have skills they don’t have. Not all men. We cannot say all men, but when I worked in financial services in the Netherlands as a company with 800 employees and there were only five women in the whole company, the CEO was a woman, her assistant and HR. Me and another woman were running business units, and the rest literally was only men. It was like so much testosterone running in the building. And then I became the most successful business unit and then I became the sales director over eight business unit. And then when she sold the company, I became CEO. But all the men wanted to do.

Esther Wildenberg:

Most of them were way older than me and they were way longer in the company than me. So that envy of why is she getting. And she said, the CEO said she has the ability to open any door, and she drove so much success in revenue and results in a short matter of time. That’s what I need to run this company. And you guys are so busy little roosters have your own competition here, who is better and who has a bigger, you know, D I C K. That’s all what they talk about.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. They’re sensitive little flowers actually, aren’t they?

Esther Wildenberg:

They are.

Melinda Wittstock:

The thing that took me Too long to realize, right. In all this socialization, this idea that men are strong and blah, blah, blah, blah. But actually, women are much stronger. Like, I think we’re almost less. Like. Okay, so the. The whole, you know, the whole paradigm, right, is that women are somehow weaker because, you know, there’s a permission structure to express your emotion, whereas men have been told they can’t express their emotion. But women have just so much more grit and strength, actually. Whereas the men are incredibly sensitive… 

Melinda Wittstock:

And maybe that’s the thing that drives them to be so petty sometimes. 

Esther Wildenberg:

It’s so, so true. It’s so funny you say it. It is funny. And I told Sherry, every man we hired in our company, they just cannot deal with it. So, we end up with hiring mostly women in our company. And it’s just interesting to see. It’s. It’s not.

Esther Wildenberg:

We. There’s for sure a lot of great men in our life, and we chose a boy, because with the IVF, we could choose gender. Then we put in the embryo, and we both said, we want a boy. We want to raise a very strong, emotional, intelligent boy that’s gonna leave a dent in the universe. So, we wanted a boy. So, I think there’s a lot we have to do to raise the next generation of emotional intelligence. Strong, emotional, sensitive guys that actually can, you know, thrive better in a world where women are taking over. Because that is happening if they like it or not.

Esther Wildenberg:

It is happening.

Melinda Wittstock:

Exactly. It’s interesting. I mean, I have a son who’s just about to turn 19. He’s very entrepreneurial. You know, he’s busy building his app and all of that, but he’s very emotionally grounded and sensitive. Like, very good at bringing people together. Very good. Very strong emotional intelligence.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s very interesting to argue that’s sort of been my project, in a way, with my son.

Esther Wildenberg:

It is a project.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. And it’s interesting with young men because, you see, currently in our society, I mean, some of them really being pulled into this really misogynist culture at the moment, and others just completely rejecting that. It’s almost like there’s a real division amongst young men at the moment which I find intriguing.

Esther Wildenberg:

Yeah, that’s. You know, because they have their own battle going on right now. It’s a shift in the generation, and so there’s this natural energy vibration shift that’s happening, and they have to fight their own little battle. What we have been doing for the past decades to get our women rights and, you know, get a voice and build businesses and not being seen as just the one that, you know, raises the kids and cooks the dinner.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, yeah, so going back, you mentioned you’re the first entrepreneur, you know, in your family, and you’re in, in, in, in the history of your family. So, what was the spark, what was it that made you say to yourself, yeah, okay, I’m, I’m going to be an entrepreneur?

Esther Wildenberg:

No, I grew up middle class, and I went to a very nice school. I played field hockey, and my friends lived in all those big mansions and nice cars and nice clothes. And I felt like, and I asked myself, why are they having that? And why are my family? Is my, is my family not having it? And then I realized that a lot of those parents were entrepreneurs. They had their own businesses. And that’s how I became a dentist in the first place, because that’s how I got kind of forced into entrepreneurship. That’s a whole different story. But it’s, I, I wanted that life. I wanted to have a life.

Esther Wildenberg:

I wanted to make so much money that I would have the freedom to do whatever I wanted to do whenever I wanted to do it. And so, when I rode my bike for 30 minutes to school every day and back, I always did a little extra tour to pass those nice homes and cars and started dreaming. And I felt like, I don’t want the financial suffer. Like, I just want them to have a different life. And I realized that in a job, it’s just not possible unless you become, you know, top of the chain. And I was very successful in my corporate career, and I made a lot of money, but I still missed the freedom part. And I realized I really have to just build my own business. And I started two businesses at the same time in 2008.

Esther Wildenberg:

And everybody thought I was crazy. My family was like, they, they thought I lost my mind, and I was crazy and gave up my, you know, multiple six figure job to build my own business from scratch in 2008 when the whole collapsed and they thought I was absolutely lunatic.

Melinda Wittstock:

No, I know. I, I, same thing with everything I’ve done in my life. Somebody somewhere, in fact, a lot of people would say, that’s crazy. Like, why are you leaving that behind? Like, I, I stopped being a television news anchor.

Esther Wildenberg:

Oh, I understand why.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right? To, to build, you know, my first of five businesses now. And people like, you’re crazy. You’re like so many people. And I, I, I, I wonder whether it was just, I, I think it was Actually their own fear. Like, they couldn’t imagine themselves doing that. And. And maybe they thought they were trying to protect me or something. I don’t know.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s the charitable way of thinking about it.

Esther Wildenberg:

It’s also a way of I don’t want you to succeed because then I have to face my own weakness. You know, if there is something like, if you can do it, I should be able to do too, but I don’t have the confidence or I don’t want to. But that’s why they want to hold you back. That’s why a lot of people or families hold their kids back. Because if they outshine their performance, then I. That’s what I noticed with my dad. Like, I’m way more successful than my dad. And there is this little envious thing that is not spoken, but I felt it.

Esther Wildenberg:

My, my. Since I’m an entrepreneur, even when I was in corporate, my dad worked for the government. So, for 40 years in the freaking same government job. Like, I just want to poke my eyes out thinking about it, but that was his life. And so, me going into corporate and then into the entrepreneurial world, building two business in the Netherlands and now two businesses here in the US and successful. He just cannot get his mind around it. Like, you know, it’s interesting. And I had to pave a path for the future, for the next generation.

Esther Wildenberg:

So, I’m talking to my nieces and my nephew about life and business and money and the careers and the path they want to choose. And they all like my life and my lifestyle. But I said, in a job, you’re not going to make that. It’s just not going to happen. So, I’m here to mentor you and help you if you want to become an entrepreneur. It’s your journey. So I just opened a path, and I think Kai, our son, he. He will be an entrepreneur.

Esther Wildenberg:

I think it’s kind of an unspoken truth that I, I think we’re putting in him right now. But if he wants to do something else, he’s on his own path. We’re just here to guide him for 18 years. And I would say we lease our children for 18 years and then they’re on their own, right? The lease expires, so we can only do so much. But it’s. Yeah, my parents had a huge impact on the decisions I made when I was younger, but I knew I wanted something different. I just didn’t know how. I had no examples in my life directly.

Esther Wildenberg:

So own. So, at 33, I got the court.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, it’s Funny, I remember even as a little girl arguing with my dad about, you know, women and that women, you know, could do anything. Like I remember just always like he would be, he was a stockbroker, right? So, he’d always be talking to my older brothers about like the markets and educating. I was like, wait a minute, what about me? Like, come on man.

Esther Wildenberg:

Like.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right, like fierce arguments with him and like, you know, I was the kid who couldn’t help it. Like I went around at age 6 with my black lab demanding prepayment for my little show, you know, because I did.

Esther Wildenberg:

No, I lost that. That’s how she stuff, right?

Melinda Wittstock:

So, I had this show, and I literally sold tickets, and I came home and I said, dad, like we need 100 chairs. He’s like, what? So, I just kept pushing the envelope and finally by the time I was in college, and you know, the profession that was sort of obvious I guess for women in a way where there were strides being made was journalism and like, you know, television news and these sorts of things. And so, you know, join the student newspaper, sort of breaking all these stories, but then figured, God, this paper isn’t profitable. So, I’m just going to create the ad department for the paper. And I was like, wait, our distribution isn’t big enough. So, I’m just going to expand the McGill Daily Citywide in Montreal and introduced the first ever English language entertainment listings, right? And like my dad, all of this and then he finally like I finally won the argument with him. He’s like, okay, of, you know, of, you know, between your brothers and you, like you’re the entrepreneur, like you’re the one who, you’re gonna go and do big things, so go for it, right? So, like I feel like I finally won the argument with him. It was like a 20-year argument.

Esther Wildenberg:

You know, I’m still in that argument and I’m 50, so.

Melinda Wittstock:

But like it was like. And I don’t know what it was within me though. They’re just like, I, you know, like I’m gonna be different, right? And it hasn’t been easy in a way because when you are a pioneer like that, right? Where you’re swimming against the tide and, and. But you have the same sort of human impulses, like you want friends, and you know, all of that. You’re not like everybody else.

Esther Wildenberg:

No, that is what I realized. It’s lonely at the top. That’s why I do retreats for women owned businesses and women only to really create an environment where they can freely speak and share what’s happening. In their business and in their personal life, in a safe environment, and then guide them and mentor them into their next level and then to the next opportunity that’s there for them and growth and collaboration, power partnerships. And there’s. If women just would like each other a little bit better in business, we could do so much better.

Melinda Wittstock:

100%. Well, that’s why I started this podcast because I was just like, okay, we gotta all talk about this.

Esther Wildenberg:

A lot of women are competing with each other too. Like they’re just steering each other down instead of celebrating each other and lifting each other up and see the power partnership opportunities. Like there is enough for everyone. Like there is abundance everywhere. So that’s what I bring to, to, to women. Like, it’s not a competition. It’s not like what you have, I want to have. Like, no, what I have is what my audience wants and what you have, your audience.

Esther Wildenberg:

And maybe we have the same audience, and we don’t even know. Why don’t we just explore how we can support each other without taking each crown? Right?

Melinda Wittstock:

So 100%. I have the exact same attitude and it’s easier said than done. Oh, I know past couple of decades, I’ve just been like, pushing that message and it’s, you know, I think I, you know, on the, on the good news side of the table, I think more women are beginning to be that, realize that, do that. But there’s so much stuff that needs to be unlearned. And I imagine that you go into that in your book, like, you know, because I think one of the ways we undermine ourselves is that really weird scarcity-based competition, you know, among women. And it is scarcity.

Esther Wildenberg:

Yeah, yeah, that’s it. It’s in my book because I’ve, I’ve seen them and even in my own life, right? And an identity crisis. A lot of women are struggling with their identity. The moment you become a mom, your whole world changes or when something happens, like, who am I? And I had the same question when I had Kai, my wife carried. But when we had Kai, you know, I became suddenly the full-time mom because she was still running the business mainly and speaking. And so, I had mainly the care of Kai, and I like, oh my gosh, I’m spending like the majority of my time caring of a baby. And I was still an entrepreneur. Am I still a businesswoman? Am I still that speaker? And you know, impact, that’s.

Esther Wildenberg:

Do I still make an impact or just am I now sitting here with a little baby? Right. So, I had to struggle and maybe because it was during COVID because he was born in May 2020, where so many things were hitting at the same time. But it was like, oh my gosh, who am I? I had to ask myself that question again. And I think a lot of women struggle with that question. Who am I?

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, that and also all kinds of things like the mix of imposter syndrome with perfectionism. Right. Because the imposter syndrome thing maybe drives that perfectionism and this kind of heads down. If I just prove my competence or how good I am, people will see. But sometimes like men, I don’t know, like they, they don’t like, say, say in a raising venture capital context, if they don’t want to see it, they won’t.

Esther Wildenberg:

Right. And so that’s very obvious in the past five years.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh my God. I mean it’s, it’s crazy because you go into these, into these pitches with VCs and you kind of know that you’re not necessarily being heard or you’re being judged on a different bar. There’s so many other things that you have to overcome.

Esther Wildenberg:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

And you know, no matter, you know, no matter what. I remember with a startup of mine, I mean, years ago, like this is 2011, I was working in the beginnings of AI natural language processing and such. And I had this journalism background. I created one of the first ever crowdsourced news platforms that was social, but underlying it was a whole technology that was proprietary to us that could rate the, not only the relevance but the reliability of user generated content. Like it’s, it’s truth quotient, if you will. Okay, so way ahead of its time. It’s like really needed now. But I had like 500, those basically bootstrapped.

Melinda Wittstock:

I had 500,000 people creating content. You know, Sorry, hold on a second, hold on, my phone is ringing. I had 500,000 people creating content. We built this incredible technology. We were ahead of Instagram in like figuring out the mobile UI. And I remember doing this big pitch for an early investor in Twitter and went through it, all our milestones or flywheel business model, how we were making money, all the different things. And he looked at me and he said, that’s great, Melinda. Somebody’s going to do that, I think.

Melinda Wittstock:

Excuse me, like I am doing it. And he said, yeah, but here’s the thing you don’t understand. We invest based on pattern recognition. I said, that’s so interesting because so many of our algorithms are based on pattern recognition. And he said, no, no, no, you don’t understand me. And I, you Know, and he started to basically lead me out of the room. And so, I’m like, walking down the street. I’m in New York, you know, I’m walking down the street thinking, God, how do I not fit the pattern? Like, oh, I see.

Melinda Wittstock:

I didn’t go to Stanford or MIT or Harvard. I didn’t drop out of any of those schools. I didn’t invent this in my garage because I’m in an apartment. I don’t have a garage. Like, I’m not eating ramen noodles because, like, there are too many carbs. I don’t know, whatever, you know. Oh, I see. Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

But it was just so mind bending for me. I’m like, the accomplishment of that was so huge, and it was really difficult not to be kind of devastated by that. And I had, like, repeated, like, that just happened over and over and over again. And it’s. It’s, you know, and that was a long time ago. I’ve gotten better at these now, but it’s still very difficult. So, like, how would you advise women who are dealing with that kind of phenomenon? Right, because we. We do need to raise capital, and unfortunately, it’s really hard to raise capital from other women, too.

Melinda Wittstock:

Like, it is.

Esther Wildenberg:

Because that is still. That it’s such a new territory still. Right. We are paving the path for the next generation in so many ways, like our parents did in so many ways. And I think one of our reasons why we’re on this planet in this generation. We are, is to really pave the path for girls, to not have this struggle we are going through in this man’s world. And we walk into a room. I can walk the same time in a room with a guy walking next to me, and another guy will walk straight to the guy and not to me.

[PROMO CREDIT]

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Melinda Wittstock:

And we’re back with Esther Wildenberg, co-founder of Codebreaker Technologies and author of The Undermined Soul.

[INTERVIEW CONTINUES]

Esther Wildenberg:

Like, it’s everywhere. We did a few times. She and I’ve been trying to get investors for our company because we launched our AI in 2019, and everybody thought we were crazy. And now, of course, everybody’s using AI, but it was. We never felt taken seriously. And it was just like, you just end this conversation, and they think you’re cute and, you know, that’s nice, but hey, we actually have something to bring to the table that’s pretty unique. And it just didn’t go anywhere until we met our female investor. And she says, yeah, no, this is exactly the world I’ve been struggling with too.

Esther Wildenberg:

And so, her mission is to really change the future of capital. And she believes that women are the future. So, she’s really on a mission to break that pattern. And that’s why we partner with her and we’re going to help her with her FFI Female Founders Institute to really help other women. And we want to invest in other women owned businesses.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s fantastic. I think the more that we do that it’s vital. So, as women start to have exits and start to really. Because there’s a lot of wealth.

Esther Wildenberg:

Women.

Melinda Wittstock:

You mentioned to begin with. Right. Women are the big new asset class actually like we are and there’s a tremendous amount of wealth that women, women have and are obtaining and so. But we need to reinvest it in other women. Yeah, it’s vital. I mean that’s really on my roadmap too to invest in other female founded businesses and like change the game. But we, we need to all find each other, you know.

Esther Wildenberg:

Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

Better.

Esther Wildenberg:

You know, I think if we can get that message out of the mindset that when women start empowering each other and start, start creating power partnerships and celebrate each other’s wins its and just fuel each other to better and collaborate, I think that’s where we gonna make the shift. And it’s on all of us women to not compete and not gossip and not make it harder. It’s already hard enough to own a women-owned business, and we all women know how hard it is. So why are we making it harder on other women? Stop doing that. It’s a choice we have to make. And I, that’s when I talk to the women I consult with or on my retreats. I said this is the number one thing you have to work on because that is the shift and the change.

Melinda Wittstock:

We can make 100%. So, tell me about code breaker technologies.

Esther Wildenberg:

Codebreaker technologies is based in personality coding technology. My wife invented the bank methodology. It’s an assessment tool like this Myers Bridge color code. We all know those assessments mostly used in corporate to hire and then never do anything with it afterwards. But that’s a whole different topic. My wife got frustrated in the sales process and said like I cannot use any of these assessments. Nobody ever asked me what my personality type is. So, she reversed engineered the assessments out there into one based in biology, the science of buying behavior.

Esther Wildenberg:

And it’s 90 seconds or less and it tells exactly what is your bank code. And based on your bank code then you can have a conversation with your lead prospect, client, customer, even your spouse. Your dating world you’re hanging out in is speak their language based on their personality type. They’re just things they value and like and they’re things they don’t value and like. And when you start talking about the things they don’t value and like, but you care about it, you lose them. So, she became very passionate about it. She made millions in her business, left her business to build this business because it got so much traction that people love the concept, loved the assessment. And then she started to do training and speaking at events and then she got picked up by Success Resources, the biggest seminar company in the world.

Esther Wildenberg:

So, she spoke with Tony Robbins and Robert Kiyosaki and Les Brown and Dennis Whitley, and all those guys are the sharks in the United States. And she had done stages around the world with all the big names talking about the methodology and system she created. Then we launched the technology so you can do the assessment online. It’s literally 90 seconds or less. And then we created in 2019 an AI that predicts the bank code of a person in nanoseconds. And it also just shows you right away what is their personality type, how to communicate with them and how to negotiate the sale and how to close the deal based on what they value. And like so you change, you don’t change how you talk about your product, you just change about the important things about that product or service you have based on what they value. So, some people value systems and do you have a step-by-step plan, and do you have a money guarantee? And other people don’t care; it’s just them about it.

Esther Wildenberg:

They want to know, how fast can you help me, how much money can I make? What’s going to be my image when I work with you? And then if people, are you going to take care of me? Are you going to do the hand holding? Are you, you know, are you in integrity? Like do you really care? And then there’s people that want all the science behind it. That’s why you have white papers and patents. So, they all can knock themselves out if they want to know everything we have. So, it’s, it’s interesting. It grew naturally without any marketing or pr. And now actually we’re going to start in the next 90 days with PR and marketing campaigns. So, we really going to get the word out because the world needs desperately know how to communicate and have a powerful conversation either in business or in personal life. It’s the yin yang.

Esther Wildenberg:

We started off in business, but then it got picked up in the dating world and parenting and you know, family conversations. 

Melinda Wittstock:

And it could really help women figure out and evaluate the VCs they’re pitching to.

Esther Wildenberg:

Right, right. That’s how we use it too. Like we knew how to speak their code and still we didn’t get the money. And then we met the female investor, and she got it right away. Genius.

Melinda Wittstock:

And so how does it work in practice? So, say you have like a prospect and how do you get them to do this? 90 second is like 90 seconds in person.

Esther Wildenberg:

You can. We have four level cards the size of a credit card. With each card has 12 values on it for each of the four personality types. And we ask people simply to sort the cards in order. What’s most important to least important so we can serve them better and save us both time. Right. So, the moment you know their values, you know what to talk about and avoid all the other things. So, you see, save you both time and you actually care about your lead.

Esther Wildenberg:

So, we have the plastic cards that are fun. Everybody wants a card. When you speak on stage, we sell the cards from stage and people run out of their seats to get those plastic cards because now they want to know their own code from their spouse, their children, their coworkers. Like their whole mind start to like noodle and on fire about who are they and why is it not working.

Melinda Wittstock:

Is there an online, is there an online way to do that as well?

Esther Wildenberg:

Yeah. Then we have the digital version. It’s a very simple link you click on. You just sort the cards online in order. It’s the same cards, but then digital. You sort it online and you just fill out your name, email address and phone number and you receive a report about how amazing you are. That I receive a report on how to communicate, negotiate and close the sale with you. So, we are the only assessment company that sends us two reports at the same time.

Esther Wildenberg:

So, the one that’s doing the assessment gets you a report about how they operate, how they make decisions, what’s important to them. And we as a company or you as a subscriber, when you use this in your business, you are the one that gets the report about how to actually communicate with your lead prospect customer. And then we have our AI, that is, we have a LinkedIn Chrome extension, for example, when you want to look up a person you want to hire, I want to target to do business with you go to the profile, you install our Chrome extension, and then it has a little button that says crack the code. You click on that button, and it scrapes the LinkedIn profile, and it spits out in nanoseconds their personality type and how to communicate with them. Oh, that’s how to set up an appointment or how to get Them to engage with you or whatever the reason is you want to connect with them. So yeah, it’s interesting. And then you have your own dashboard with all the reports and with all the. There’s all the tools are there exactly.

Esther Wildenberg:

On what to say, what not to say, what to do, what not to do. So, there’s this guideline also you can just follow at all times. It’s basically a cheat cheat-sheet. Right. It’s a shortcut on knowing who you are and if you the one I want to hang out with and in business. How can I win your business? By talking about the things you care about, not the things I think you care about.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s so cool. I want to try this. And so, you just go to codebreakertech.com.

Esther Wildenberg:

And code breaker codebreakertech.com I will send you the links. Yeah, you go to cobreakertech.com or codebreakerglobal.com and there is right away the assessment. It’s right there on the homepage.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s amazing. I can imagine like just the impact of this on your sales success and efficiency, but also saving time, like so you’re not spinning your wheels with folks that you don’t actually want to work with.

Esther Wildenberg:

Yeah, right. It saves so much time and energy and then you make way more money because you don’t need to do three, four or five meetings and then still get a no. You’re going to have maybe one or two meetings and getting a yes. Right. It’s. It’s just when you know how to speak a language. But basically, we give you all the language so you don’t even need to think. Right.

Esther Wildenberg:

So, we do all the work for you. It’s all in our system and we have thousands of clients, and we have so many testimonials. People say it’s really. When you use bank, it really works. Like, it’s just. It’s genius. I always say my wife is genius and because I met her in Amsterdam and she was speaking at a conference with Tony Robbins and Robert K. Kiyosaki and Les Brown.

Esther Wildenberg:

And she was the only person I bought her program bank to infuse it in my consulting business to for me to talk to my clients was because Fortune 500 is not always the easiest clients like Shell Gas and Oil and Unilever and IBM and ING and you know, Deloitte and Tush were my clients. So that was not always the easiest. And then I had all those consultants who cannot communicate the freaking thing just a role in finance or in it. And communication is not Necessarily their, their, you know, their main skill. So, I wanted them to learn it. And then I realized, oh, my gosh, this is genius. I have to bring this to every business I know in the Netherlands and then expanded in five countries in Europe. And I told Shira, you have to come back because I, I’m building a business here, but I cannot teach you, so you have to come back.

Esther Wildenberg:

And so, she came back. We did a whole tour through Europe for 30 days. We fell in love. A year later, I moved to the United States and got married and sold my company and my home, my car, everything, and I’ve ever since been here.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh, that’s amazing. Wow. What a journey. Well, I’m really excited to use this in our visit. You sold me. I don’t know. Did you do my profile before you did this interview?

Esther Wildenberg:

No, I didn’t. No, No.

Melinda Wittstock:

I mean, I can see so many use cases for this. It’s, it’s. It’s tremendous. I’m thinking I’ve got a big VC pitch, you know, coming up. I’m like, let’s see, how can I figure this out? It’s an important one.

Esther Wildenberg:

I will, I will send you the links and I also will email you for your address so I can send you a hard copy of my book. I’d love to connect you to a few very powerful women in my life that would probably love to connect with you too, so.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh, fantastic. Well, I love this because one of my other roles, in addition to building the podcast platform and the really architected as a very decentralized digital democracy that empowers creators and fans and brands and all of that, it’s a very big vision. But in addition to that, I’m also a venture partner at a new fund that is really focused on female founders and. And I think the different funds out there and women who are actually looking for. We need to work together, in other words. Right.

Esther Wildenberg:

Like, I think let’s work together. I want you to talk to our partner and investor. She’s incredible, and she’s really big in investing. She only wants to invest in women owned business. And I think the more we can partner and collaborate, the more women we can help. I think we really can leave a dent in the universe that’s bigger than our imagination right now. But I truly believe that.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, I do too. Esther, I could talk to you for hours more.

Esther Wildenberg:

Yes, we will schedule a call after the podcast.

Melinda Wittstock:

You’re amazing. Thank you so much for putting on your wings and flying with us today.

Esther Wildenberg:

Oh, I loved every second of it. You’re amazing and all the women listening. Just remember how amazing you are. And the world needs your light and your Genesis, genius and wisdom. And just shine it regardless. And don’t undermine yourself and don’t let others undermine you. And then the world is yours.

Melinda Wittstock:

I couldn’t have said it better. Thank you.

Esther Wildenberg:

Thank you so much.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Melinda Wittstock:

Esther Wildenberg is the co-founder of Codebreaker Technologies and author of The Undermined Soul. 

Melinda Wittstock:

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Melinda Wittstock:

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