9321 Michelle Gladieux:

Wings of Inspired Business Podcast EP931 – Host Melinda Wittstock interviews Michelle Gladieux

Melinda Wittstock:

Coming up on Wings of Inspired Business:

Michelle Gladieux:

Risk rarely leads to things going exactly as you visualize. Sometimes our ambition gets in the way of showing ourselves grace when our results are less than ideal. Try to think, I need to practice, not I need perfection. If you have high expectations, I salute and join your pursuit of excellence. The downside is we make life harder for ourselves and others as we struggle to accept that we mess up sometimes. It’s beautifully human to achieve less than A-plus outcomes when taking a worthy risk as a communicator, please be gentle with yourself and others. Don’t keep score about your wins and losses. No book, no coach, no class, no person, nothing is going to polish your communication as well as the old-fashioned method of try fail at some part of the interaction, then try again, maybe even when interacting with the same person the very next day.

Melinda Wittstock:

Success in business comes down to relationships. People buy from people. People work with people. People invest in people. So how we communicate is vital to our success, and let’s face it, no one is perfect at it. Michelle Gladieux is known as the “human potential whisperer” and author of the book “Communicate with Courage,” revealing four hidden obstacles in communication and how to overcome them. Today we talk about how to embrace optimism and self-awareness, overcome our fears and judgments, and the power of feedback in getting it right, plus the importance of listening, setting boundaries, and nurturing mutual support to build trust.

Melinda Wittstock:

Hi, I’m Melinda Wittstock and welcome to Wings of Inspired Business, where we share the inspiring entrepreneurial journeys, epiphanies, and practical advice from successful female founders … so you have everything you need at your fingertips to build the business and life of your dreams. I’m all about paying it forward as a five-time serial entrepreneur, so I started this podcast to catalyze an ecosystem where women entrepreneurs mentor, promote, buy from, and invest in each other. Because together we’re stronger, and we all soar higher when we fly together and lift as we climb.

Melinda Wittstock:

Today we meet an inspiring entrepreneur called the “human potential whisperer” by the Wall St. Journal. Michelle Gladieux is the author of the award-winning book Communicate with Courage and President of Gladieux Consulting, offering executive coaching on communication and leadership as well as strategic planning. Starting her career as an HR and Training Director in the cold storage, robotics, and construction industries, Michelle has 18 years collegiate teaching experience at three universities, accepting her first faculty position teaching organizational leadership at age 23. Listen on because today we get practical about ways you can elevate your communication skills—whether to master sales and negotiation, team building, or just better relationships.

Melinda Wittstock:

Michelle will be here in a moment, and first:

[PROMO CREDIT]

Eight years ago, I started this podcast because I wanted to help women succeed as entrepreneurs. Over the years, I’ve driven more than $10 million in sales to the women I’ve featured on this show, and this year I’ve taken my investment in female founders to a whole new level as a venture partner of the new firm Zero Limits Capital, where we’re dedicated to investing in highly scalable seed stage startups founded by women and diverse teams. We’re looking for mission-driven innovators with exciting new applications of AI, Blockchain and other emerging technologies that make a social and sustainable impact to change the world. If this is you, please take a moment and tell us about your opportunity at bit.ly/ZLCintake – that’s bit.dot.ly/ZLCintake – capital ZLC lowercase intake. 

Melinda Wittstock:

Today we talk about why great communicators and connectors are full of optimism and courage, taking what Michelle calls “smart risks” to elevate their game. From dealing with toxic individuals to understanding the impact of our upbringing, Michelle shares how our subconscious patterns and inner psyche affect our communication patterns, and how we can become aware and overcome these patterns by creating a continual feedback loop to gain constructive insights from colleagues and customers.

Melinda Wittstock:

Let’s put on our wings with the inspiring Michelle Gladieux.

[INTERVIEW]

Melinda Wittstock:

Michelle, welcome to Wings.

Michelle Gladieux:

Hey, thank you for having me. Melinda.

Melinda Wittstock:

You’ve been called the human potential whisperer. What an awesome thing. And what does that mean in practice?

Michelle Gladieux:

I hope it means that I meet people where they are and I see a seed of good and a seed of brilliance in communication in everyone. And I would like to nudge them, encourage them, maybe poke them, but not in too pokey of a way to admit that they could take steps forward as communicators as well, and it would benefit them and everybody they work with and love.

Melinda Wittstock:

Ah, you know, sounds so beautiful and so difficult to master.

Michelle Gladieux:

Well, I need to master myself is the problem. Everything I teach about and write about in the Communicate with Courage book, I have these obstacles, and I have been working really hard to try to get past some of these just, I would say long held beliefs that hold me back. Some, some more egocentric behaviors that I find trip me up. Some impostor syndrome, which I think every woman experiences. And some men, you know. So, I have a lot that I want to work on. And that’s really why I wrote the book. I wanted to illuminate four hidden obstacles, the four hidden challenges that are messing us all up and not to be.

Michelle Gladieux:

And we need to remember not to be pessimistic because there’s often so much more we can do to improve any situation as one person, one communicator than we realize.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, I like that you said hidden challenges because they are, they’re in our subconscious. You know, the world, I, I, I joke is being run by five-year-olds because a lot of us never got past, you know, the beliefs that we formed before we had a frontal lobe. And it drives us without us even knowing. I mean, 90% of our actions are driven by our self-conscious, our subconscious. And so, so, you know, if we don’t even know what that’s leading us to, certain reactions or behaviors it’s really difficult to address. So, you know, how do we become conscious. Conscious of these things and, and, and essentially kind of recover from them. So, tell me about these hidden challenges.

Michelle Gladieux:

Yeah. Wow, is that well put. I have a degree in psychology, and I had underestimated. I now realize I had underestimated even as I wrote the book, how much our subconscious is trying to dictate our behaviors or accidentally dictating our behaviors. And I’m thinking, what does one do about that? And I think it’s important to think about how you were raised and what was around as you’ve lived your life, what was rewarded, what was punished and what was demonstrated to you by role models who perhaps were doing their best, but it wasn’t the best or what you needed. I just want to echo that’s a very important comment, and a lot of this is not in our conscious. So, as I look at these hidden challenges, I think about and teach about four, and they are hiding from risk because we’ve got our head down and we’re just trying to, you know, we’re ducking for cover. Is hiding from risk.

Michelle Gladieux:

Defining to be right is being so damn sure and being quick to judge just because what’s true to us, we think should be or will be true to everyone. A mistake I make, you know, certainly weekly, probably daily. Defining to be right. The third hidden challenge that I have tried to illuminate in my book is rationalizing the negative. And that is an opportunity for folks, whenever they get a hold of the book or this podcast, to start thinking about whether they are expecting the best, expecting the worst, or something in between and preparing for both. I’m not saying that life is all sunshine and roses, but when we’re shielding ourselves from taking chances, like taking the risk to say the hard thing or face a conflict or negotiate a better deal or apologize because we messed up or ask for help, then we’re really limiting our joy and success in life. So, I’m asking folks to choose a mindset and choose the strong, courageous mindset. I vote for optimism, having the courage to put some faith into possible positive outcomes.

Michelle Gladieux:

And that way, even if you fail and when you fall, you will laugh a little sooner and you will find a way to make it a teaching moment for yourself and others.

Melinda Wittstock:

And what’s the fourth one?

Michelle Gladieux:

The fourth one is settling for good enough. And that is, of course, just not putting our best foot forward or our best energy towards the communication in writing or in person. Instead of striving towards interactions, it could have more rewarding outcomes. And what I hear from my coaching clients and myself are things like, he won’t listen. She never. She always. They won’t care. We’ve already tried.

Michelle Gladieux:

And it’s like, you know, you’re right. I don’t think anything’s going to get better in this business situation or this personal relationship. I agree with you. And people will be like, what, you know, isn’t. Aren’t you supposed to be whispering my potential to me?

Melinda Wittstock:

You know?

Michelle Gladieux:

And I said, well, you. You’ve decided, so you won’t try. You’ve decided he won’t listen, she won’t care, and they won’t change. So, you’re going to go ahead and pass on this opportunity and therefore nothing will come of this. You’re right. So, can you talk yourself into some positivity and some courage to give it a shot? You never know. The other 50% of the communication is on someone else. You never know.

Michelle Gladieux:

It might be the right time for them to make a change too.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, I mean, you get what you’re thinking. So, if you prejudge something and you’ve already decided that’s what you’re going to get.

Michelle Gladieux:

Usually, yeah. We can’t prove that. I haven’t found a way to prove that or design any experimentation around that. I can’t prove it. But I know that sometimes we can be pleasantly surprised. But I know that more often we enjoy the outcome when we’ve decided that we’re going to put our whole selves into something. Even if we have to get better at writing, better at public speaking, better at negotiating or apologizing. We need to know what we need to get better at as communicators and then take baby steps.

Michelle Gladieux:

I, you know, and maybe with a guide, a coach, a trainer, a counselor, a teacher, a mentor, and maybe on our own. I find that the guides have really helped me a lot through life. Reading and studying and professors and, and loved ones who have been willing to give me constructive feedback and positive feedback because every human needs. Both have really helped.

Melinda Wittstock:

I think this, this fourth one is a tricky one though too, because you can make assumptions about somebody and be wrong. Like maybe there is an opening, and you could be better at that and there could be a different outcome and then there are toxic people. Like if you’re dealing with a narcissist or you’re dealing with, I don’t know how many, you know, American families bitterly divided, say by, by politics, where it’s just impossible to have a conversation or there’s just somebody who is just unwilling will always be. And it’s just, and it’s a waste of your time and, and, and trying to figure out what you’re dealing with here in terms of what’s the best use of your time and your focus.

[PROMO CREDIT]

Let’s get honest: Women founders face challenges men don’t. Less funding.
More juggling. Constant second-guessing. And a world that tells us to “play nice” and not ask for too much. Let’s stop playing small. If you’re feeling stuck right now — plateaued, under pressure, isolated, exhausted — I get it. It’s not easy leading a team or raising investment in a male-dominated space, navigating complex markets, AI disruption, economic headwinds all while balancing family, relationships, and your own wellbeing. But here’s the truth: The problem isn’t you. It’s that you’re trying to do it all alone. That’s a recipe for burnout, not breakthroughs. That’s why I’m inviting you to join the Zero Limits Growth Club. It’s led by VC investor and serial entrepreneur Steve Little, who’s built 6 of his own businesses to 9-figure exits, helped 470+ companies more than 20X their value, and now also invests in female-founded businesses. I’ve known Steve for a decade, and what I’ve learned from him along the way has been nothing short of transformational. Here’s what you get: A 24-Point Value Growth Assessment—custom-crafted for your business to uncover hidden risks and unearth hidden opportunities along with a custom Growth Strategy—built just for you and the impact you want to have on the world – all with monthly masterminds, office hours for real-time decision-making, Steve’s personal guidance and access to bold supportive founders like you, plus allies and investors. So, if you’re waiting for the “perfect time” – spoiler:  it never comes.

This is for women who are done with guesswork, isolation, and being underestimated.

Because you deserve more than a seat at the table. You deserve to OWN the table.

Check it out at growthclub.zerolimitsventures.com and hope to see you on the inside.

Melinda Wittstock:

And we’re back with Michelle Gladieux, author of the award-winning book Communicate with Courage.

[INTERVIEW CONTINUES]

Michelle Gladieux:

We don’t have to always be extending ourselves to others who are manipulative or unfair in communication, who aren’t truthful, who we don’t trust, who won’t own their missteps and mistakes. And I do write about that in the book, sort of what’s the right time to draw that line, set that boundary and say goodbye. But most of the time with ethical human beings, there are some things, some smart risks we can take to build trust. And I see those as practicing skillful self-disclosure, revealing maybe a little more than we have to. Our emotion or our value system or our goals or hopes at the right time can really lower others walls. I try to limit the amount of eye communication I use so that we have a little more time to hear about. We and they and I try to share credit.

Michelle Gladieux:

It’s always a goal of mine. And we can try to bravely offer apologies when we do let people down and increase facetime in our relationships. Couple ideas there for building trust and, and trying to seed better communication with those that we either have to or want to work with and be involved with. This is very important.

Melinda Wittstock:

That building trust and empathy requires someone who’s willing to listen as much as they’re willing to talk. Like on, on this podcast, we’ve talked about effective sales. You know, in, in, in many episodes, it, it turns out that the person who’s talking the most thinks it’s the most successful meeting. Right? So, if you’ if you’re the salesperson, you should be listening the most.

Michelle Gladieux:

You know, and we’ve looked at my team and I’ve looked at personality assessment data because we love to use personality assessment before we start any coaching with an individual interested in career growth and in personality assessment. We always thought, well, if we’re helping a company hire, perhaps this would be useful. Companies wanted to look for extroverts for any important sales roles. But what the research really shows is that you need an ambivert. In other words, somebody who is both introverted and extroverted and, and their preference kind of meets in the middle. Maybe they’re close to 50. 50. Extroversion.

Michelle Gladieux:

Introversion.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh my God, that’s me.

Michelle Gladieux:

Okay, there you go. Because you know what? Can you lead the meeting? Yes. Could you talk if I wanted you to tell me 10 minutes of benefits to this idea that you’re pitching, could you? Sure. And you would be a good storyteller. I, you know, I’ve enjoyed communicating with you before this podcast interview ever started. And so, I know that you’re articulate and outgoing at the same time. Your introversion allows you to let somebody else have the microphone for a minute, put them on stage or put them in the spotlight and you sell that way, I’m sure, persuade and change the world that way.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s, it’s, it’s an enrollment kind of thing. It’s finding a bond and working towards, you know, mutually winnable solutions, like in that sales context. And the introversion, extroversion thing. It’s interesting though, because I do enjoy people, but I also need to recover from people. Like, I need my quiet time. I get my energy; I restore right by myself. Right. So that’s, That’s.

Michelle Gladieux:

Figure that out, Melinda.

Melinda Wittstock:

A long time. Because everybody just looks at me and they assume I’m an extrovert. Yeah, right.

Michelle Gladieux:

Turn it on when you need to.

Melinda Wittstock:

Exactly. But it can be exhausting. I have to replenish after doing that. It comes easily to me to be able to do that, but it’s exhausting. So that’s where I’m like an ambivert.

Michelle Gladieux:

I’ve been listening to the podcast, and I really enjoy it. And congratulations on more than 900 episodes that since 2017. That’s pretty amazing.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, it is, but it’s enjoyable because I have conversations like this, like it. It. I always learn from it. Right. The audience learns. I’m able to really put the spotlight on so many wonderful female founded businesses that are kind of like the hidden figures of the business world, don’t get as much attention as others, and most importantly, drive revenue to those businesses. 

Melinda Wittstock:

My mindset is like, how can everybody win? I just enjoy doing this. It’s not my main gig. Like, I have a business that I’m growing and scaling and raising money for and doing all the things right. But, but this is nice.

Michelle Gladieux:

You know,. I was listening to the PR Secrets November 19, 2024 podcast yesterday, and you did a great job and so did Holly and Caitlin. And on that episode, you talked about your kids. I want you to know why. You mentioned that your kids are 21 and 17. And one of the things that you said that I loved was you got to let your kids see you do hard things. And I thought to myself, yes, and also your employees and your coworkers make your communication goals known to others and let them see a little bit of your vulnerability.

Michelle Gladieux:

Because then when you try to change, we’re ready for your change. Because you have announced that positive change is coming.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, exactly. Like I think when kids see you struggle with adversity or things, you can’t control, right? Because everybody has things they can’t control in their lives, right. So, it comes down to how you, what you take from that. So as an entrepreneur, one of the things that you learn if you’re going to succeed as an entrepreneur is that failure is inevitable and failure is little more than feedback. You’re iterating, you’re, if you’re the type of entrepreneur like me that’s creating something completely new that hasn’t been done before, right. It’s, it’s like you’re in a, like a lab testing things and you have a hypothesis and as you grow your business, you’re refining that. So there’s going to be micro failures, there’s going to be things you can’t control, there’s going to be all kinds of ups and downs and all of that.

Melinda Wittstock:

Which is why I say if you want therapy, become an entrepreneur. Right? Because it’s going to, it’s going to acquaint you with some of those subconscious things we were talking about, some of those hidden icebergs that you didn’t know you had because they’re going to manifest and in, in your reactions and if you’re going to succeed, you’re going to kind of learn along the way. So like with my kids from the earliest age, like one of my businesses launched when my daughter was six weeks old, I mean, I don’t even know how I did that. I think in a way that sort of prepares them for the world actually as it is, rather than being over protected. So just watching me kind of deal with that stuff, it kind of sends a message that okay, so stuff is going to happen, but you’re good, you can deal with it. Right? You know, lucky kids.

Michelle Gladieux:

Some of our, some of our, your followers and our listeners did not have the luck of having that role model. But I have seen adults at every age find a way to incentivize that kind of behavior in themselves. And often my coaching clients will make a list for me. As an exercise between monthly coaching sessions, I’ll ask them to create a rewards list. Anything they can do for themselves that restores body, mind or soul. Could be a couple seconds, couple minutes, couple hours, couple days. Cost nothing, cost a lot, cost a little something. And then when they venture into areas where they might fail or it feels scary, they get the ‘ick’ feeling to go back to the rewards list and make sure that in that same 24-hour period.

Michelle Gladieux:

They reward themselves.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s really important. I remember learning in a mastermind group last year, a really interesting thing. I was doing a gratitude practice, but somebody was suggesting, in addition to gratitude, because you can be grateful for things that you have no control over. But to add to that, an acknowledgement practice where you’re literally acknowledging. Acknowledging yourself at the end of every day for everything that you did and, like, who you were being. Because I think we forget. And I remember when I started doing this exercise, like, I do, like, a zillion things through the day, but, like, I’d get to the end of the day and I. I struggled to begin with, to even find things to acknowledge myself for.

Melinda Wittstock:

I thought that was interesting. Right? Because I was on to the next thing.

Michelle Gladieux:

You’re not. You’re certainly not a braggart.

Melinda Wittstock:

I suppose I was like, onto the next thing already, do you know? Which is a very entrepreneurial thing. Right.

Michelle Gladieux:

So. So taking time, you’ve got a ton of. You’ve got a ton of achievement motivation in your very DNA, I think. And. And also based on your life experience. Oh.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh, totally. I mean, I can’t not be like that.

Michelle Gladieux:

But like, But.

Melinda Wittstock:

But that acknowledgment is really important. Just taking the time, like, oh, man, like, this happened, and I solved that problem. That’s good because it creates the. It kind of rewires your brain, I guess, it gives you confidence to realize that. Oh, yeah, like, that was hard. And I. And I did that.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. And it helps to write it more.

Michelle Gladieux:

Gentle with ourselves, man. Hey, could I. You know, you brought up how failure is success at times, and I. Could I read two paragraphs from my book about that?

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh, yeah, sure. By. By all means. Because this is a big topic on this show. My. One of my missions of this show is to destigmatize failure because it’s part of the entrepreneurial process.

Michelle Gladieux:

Beautiful. Okay. This is from Chapter 8, called Risks Not Worth Taking. And one of the risks I advise readers to know about, that it’s not worth taking is setting unachievably high standards. And let me just say, I’m a fan of high standards.

Melinda Wittstock:

But they have to be reasonable.

Michelle Gladieux:

So, risk rarely leads to things going exactly as you visualize. Sometimes our ambition gets in the way of showing ourselves grace when our results are less than ideal. Try to think, I need to practice, not I need perfection. If you have high expectations, I salute and join your pursuit of excellence. The downside is we make life harder for ourselves and others as we struggle to accept that we mess up sometimes. It’s beautifully human to achieve less than a plus outcomes when taking a worthy risk as a communicator, please be gentle with yourself and others. Don’t keep score about your wins and losses. When it comes to getting outside your comfort zone, the situation you’re in reminds me of the Bob Dylan song Love minus zero, no Limit.

Michelle Gladieux:

In it, Dylan sings the praises of a lover who views failure as a success among other beautiful traits like being true as ice or fire. No book, no coach, no class, no person, nothing is going to polish your communication as well as the old-fashioned method of try fail at some part of the interaction, then try again, maybe even when interacting with the same person the very next day. That’s usually a pretty fair descriptor of the dynamics in most of our committed relationships, isn’t it? You just keep showing up, as do they. Your act of trying in itself is a success. Do you see all the people not trying? Just a tidbit. I feel strongly about this and I love rock and roll. So, I snuck Bob Dylan in.

Melinda Wittstock:

I love it, it’s beautiful because I mean it really is about iteration and what you’re describing really is the art of just being right as opposed to doing. And we settle these milestones for ourselves and some of them are kind of artificial and some of them are overly. You know, it’s not wrong to have a big vision and be ambitious or any of those things is great, right? But when you as an entrepreneur, you, you, you can easily tie yourself to really unrealistic goals. Right? And it’s, it’s good to be a dreamer and, and be, you know, the, the, the, the bigger you dream, the bigger you’re likely to go. But at the same time in getting there, it is a process. So I love this idea of practice, not perfection because I think one of the biggest traps that women founders in particular fall into is thinking that not only do they have to do everything, but they have to control the outcome of everything. And everything has to be perfect, and they have to be perfect in all parts of their lives at all times. And it’s just completely unrealistic and a recipe for unhappiness.

Melinda Wittstock:

And it doesn’t like done is often better than perfect. And so we talk about there should be an AA for perfectionists on this, this show. But I love this that the, just the act of trying is success and, and the importance of learning. Being open minded and curious enough to just learn, you know, as you go. Right?

Michelle Gladieux:

Yes. Yes. Amen, sister. It’s a lot easier to say it than it is to do it. But everyone should practice. I have an opportunity in the next 48 hours to sit in with a band and sing a song or play a little bit on bass. And I’m a beginning vocalist and after 20 years a beginning bass player, because I don’t really give it the time it deserves for the bass to be happy with the amount of time I pick it up. But I know that it’s important for me to feel that feeling.

Michelle Gladieux:

And it never, I have had to accept that it’s never going to go off without a hitch. My voice will crack, and I will certainly hit the wrong note. And I try to think about what Miles Davis said in that case. When you hit the wrong note, that’s style, it’s what you do with it after the wrong note that makes it jazz. So when we hit the wrong note, let’s make some jazz with it and be like, oh, that was a little flat. And I think I will try this instead next time.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, you know what’s lovely about that, that’s actually really endearing because when we dare to show some vulnerability, people can resonate with that. Right. And so one of the interesting things I’m curious about your thoughts about, especially for entrepreneurs and women leaders, that balance of vulnerability with the pressure of, you know, competence and confidence and strength.

Michelle Gladieux:

Yeah, amen to that.

Melinda Wittstock:

Because when men show vulnerability, they’re like, they get like hero grams. You know what I mean? It’s like, oh, wow, he was, you know. But when women show vulnerability, I think there’s a fear that it can be weaponized against us. And yet it’s important. Right. So how do we balance that in especially male dominated fields?

Michelle Gladieux:

Yeah. And I want to say something about, to the guys and about guys and that is, I don’t know which is, I don’t know which is worse. To be the person who is expected to show vulnerability and is punished if she doesn’t generalize here or to be the person who can’t show vulnerability and is punished if he does. Again, gender, gender generalizations there. So we’ve all been a bit trapped. I cannot stand it when I hear a public speaker or anyone in a meeting say, well, I’m really nervous about this and I’m not sure if I’m ready. And like, I think, please, I know that’s in your mind, but let’s look at that self-talk, maybe get it on paper. So, here’s one idea.

Michelle Gladieux:

Why don’t you check out what you say to yourself in the shower when you Drive as you fall asleep at night, whenever you’re ruminating about yourself, jot down what you’re saying about yourself to yourself. A lot of selves there. But by the end of our life, we will have spoken more to ourself than anyone else, even if we were married to our best friend for 50 years. So we have to look at the quality of the conversations we have with ourselves. And then I’m not saying that all the negative self-talk has to go honestly, because you might need to have a little talk with yourself about it. A weak area that you need to learn about. However, there will always be some things in my coaching clients practice when they answer this exercise about self-talk that’s not these. These statements aren’t fair, and they are quite debatable.

Michelle Gladieux:

When you’re with somebody who’s a supporter or a mentor, a guide or a teacher or friend, just somebody trustworthy, you might want to read what you’re saying to yourself out loud to others to see how inaccurate they think it is or you think it is. And if it’s inaccurate, cross it off the list.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, exactly. Because we have all kinds of things like that. And that’s often our subconscious talking to us as well, Right?

Michelle Gladieux:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s not even you. I mean, because you think back to, you know, when you’re a toddler or baby or whatever, you’re imprinting stuff from … It could be from the TV, it could be from your parents having an argument. It could be whatever. And we take that, and we make it mean something about ourselves. And it’s actually nothing to do with us in reality, right, and then we carry that.

Michelle Gladieux:

I’ve never heard anyone other than you describe being an entrepreneur as its own unique type of valuable therapy. But I am glad I’m an entrepreneur. And I will say that I think it has brought me some better understanding of the thing behind the veil, the things that are going on behind the veil in my choices and actions. And we only have a limited amount of time on this planet.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah.

Michelle Gladieux:

To take smart chances to learn as much as we can. But certainly, we don’t want to stifle our own voice because we don’t feel that we are as good as someone else. I. I strongly believe that all souls are created equal, and you will not meet someone who is more or less than you in a humanity point of view. Right. And I think that helps our participants and coaching clients step up to the plate. They are not less than and they are not better than. And that gives you a great foundation to stand upon when you want to grow your business or make your business a bit smaller or take a different road or turn down a money-making opportunity that everyone thinks you should take, but you’re listening to your gut.

Michelle Gladieux:

All of that becomes easier when you think they are no better than me. I am no better than them. But it’s my business. So I will, you know, I will, I will go down this road and make mistakes and learn. It’s always a, it’s a bout. As you said, it’s a balancing act because we want to welcome feedback and we also want to have our own definition of success in mind which by the way, isn’t a bad, isn’t a bad action for listeners to take it. How about a list of the roles R O L E s that are most important to you right now? It might be owner and significant other and mom and sister or something, but list four or five roles that you hold and then keep it to one or two sentences. But a definition of success.

Michelle Gladieux:

What would you be proud of you. If you achieved you, you, you, not they. And a lot of people start that exercise, Melinda, and they’re like excited about it. And I see them like get ready to type or get ready to write and then they go, this is really hard because I’m always thinking, what does my spouse, what do my kids, what does my employee, what do my employees think? What does my team think almost before I think about what I want to be.

Melinda Wittstock:

Exactly. Oh my goodness. So I want to go back into one of your four hidden challenges, which is the deciding to be right quick to. And it’s making me laugh because we have a saying at Zero Limits Capital where I’m entrepreneur in residence and a venture partner. When we’re evaluating a lot of companies and we’re looking at things like, well, so how coachable and how curious are the founders because you know that they’re going to encounter all kinds of things they don’t expect. And to really get through this process, what we’ve been talking about, you have to be nimble, flexible, be able to pivot quickly, be, you know what I mean? Be curious and coachable, right? This is a critical thing when you’re investing in an early-stage company, right.

Melinda Wittstock:

That has a lot of stuff they still have to prove right. And we hope that we’re looking, you know, there are two types of people, do you want to be right, or do you want to be rich?

Michelle Gladieux:

I’ve never even heard right or rich. I’ve heard do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, but in this context, white or rich. Right. Okay. Which one’s more important to you? Right. Because you can, you can take a kind of ego stand that like you know exactly what your projection, like you know exactly how you’re going to get there, and it’s got to be a certain way and you could be wrong. Right. Whereas a slight tweak in a different direction is like a difference between either failing or succeeding or a difference between like a, you know, I don’t know, like a one-million-dollar business and a hundred-million-dollar business. Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

So which one, which one, which one do you want to do? You want to do.

Michelle Gladieux:

Right, I get it. Hey, and I, I’m sitting over here trying to feel courageous about asking you a question. You can edit this out if you want, but would you please, slowly, one more time, run through those credentials that you just fast forwarded through. You. When you talk about in what role, at what company are you, when you are looking to see how coachable and curious are the founders? It’s a venture capital. A venture capital firm.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yes. So, Zero Limits Capital is a new venture firm that’s really focused on seed stage companies, primarily in tech that have, you know, highly scalable. So, whether it’s climate tech, health tech, fintech, media tech, you know, etc, that are focused on social impact, but also have female founders and, and at those early stages of the seed stage of a, you know, a venture qualified company that is a company that could conceivably be a billion-dollar business. Right. You know, so there’s all kinds of things that you look at, like does it have a big enough market? Does it have a differentiated solution? Is the team qualified and good? But one of the things we look at when we’re looking at team is how coachable and how curious they are. Like how nimble are they, how open minded are they? Because that’s critical to success.

Michelle Gladieux:

I love that. And what I want to do with that, I just want to, I want to get, when we, when we get done here, I just want to get to a place that I can have some quiet time. And I just want to write from that prompt. How coachable and curious have I been lately? Not very. I, I tend to get very busy and then especially with loved ones. I do that to myself. Of course, the, the crown of busyness that, that we carry and also has a lot to do with our personalities. But I ask myself, you know, am I being my best self as a communicator? Have I been coachable and Curious.

Michelle Gladieux:

And when I’m really busy, I don’t feel very coachable and I’m. Then I get mad at myself that I don’t have time to be curious. Interesting.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. Because it’s just constantly. I find as an entrepreneur myself is just constantly asking questions and sometimes questions you don’t want to ask. Right. And where it’s tricky is where it gets mixed up and can get mixed up in negative self-talk or do you know what I mean? And in learning to distinguish. That’s why it’s really a journey about being conscious and being present and really on top of those things. And like you say, it’s practice, it’s not perfection. It’s like an ongoing thing.

Melinda Wittstock:

And you keep learning more and more and more as you go. All it is is a journey, right.

Michelle Gladieux:

With a very important coming for us soon. End point.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, yeah, the end point is death.

Michelle Gladieux:

Right. But like, death is a great motivator.

Melinda Wittstock:

But on that journey, that’s the one thing we know. There’s two things we know for sure in life, right. One is we’re gonna die, and the other one is that the only thing we can take for granted also is change. So…

Michelle Gladieux:

Well, I do teach a lot of change management workshops and boy, that has to be approached with humility.

Melinda Wittstock:

It is. It’s inevitable. Here’s the thing. There’s change that we can’t control. Right. And there’s change that we can. And, and, and so how are you dealing with that change? So, like early in my life, I remember I was in my twenties, but I suddenly, I realized this. I had this epiphany about this.

Melinda Wittstock:

Like, I can, I can only take this thing for granted that there’s always going to be change. And, and there was a. Such peace that came over me with that idea because I think what leads to the controlling thing and like wanting to be right all the time and all of that is just a search for certainty. It’s like a fear of change.

Michelle Gladieux:

Oh, that just helped me have compassion for myself. I bet you have hundreds of listeners that just felt something open in their heart.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh, that’s so sweet. I mean, I hope. I mean, you know, this is therapeutic for me too. Right. Because when I say all these things out loud, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s helpful for me as well. Right. I think for all of us. I think we’re all connected.

Melinda Wittstock:

We’re all on this journey together and we all help each other. Yeah.

Michelle Gladieux:

Well, we certainly haven’t been brought up to help each other as women. Necessarily not. Certainly. No, we haven’t. Because if there’s only room for two of us at a table of ten, then it’s me versus you, sister. So that I. I hope is changing. I’m trying that.

Michelle Gladieux:

And. And I know you are, too.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh, yeah. You know, that’s a particular issue for me that I just. I’ve been trying, you know, working on my entire life because I’ve experienced that. That whole kind of tall poppy syndrome, like, where you dare to, okay, communicate. 

Melinda Wittstock:

Where you dare to communicate with courage. Right. The name of your book.

Michelle Gladieux:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

Stand up. You stand tall, and you go for it, and you have a big dream. And I have had so many women in subtle or not so subtle ways, try to kind of excommunicate you for that. You know what I mean? Like, you just do. You know, I’ve experienced that all through my life. It’s painful because it’s like. And it’s taken me a long time to understand it, and I finally landed at. Okay.

Melinda Wittstock:

In a patriarchal system, there’s scarcity imposed on women that’s been internalized.

Michelle Gladieux:

That’s true.

Melinda Wittstock:

We have. Scarcity is that there can only be a few that are allowed to sort of succeed. And then there’s this kind of fear of. I don’t know, but that. What it is, that, like, if you have a bunch of crabs in a crab pot and one adventurous crab is trying to get out, all the other crabs pull that crab down. 

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s less than it was with women, but it’s still sort of there. And sometimes you see it in, like, even entrepreneur groups for women that are supposed to be lifting everybody up.

Michelle Gladieux:

And it’s.

Melinda Wittstock:

But it. There’s still. It’s still this. This.

Michelle Gladieux:

We all carry hurts, and we all carry fears, carry a lot. We carry a lot of emotional intelligence out into the world. And we’re usually. Women are usually in any communication setting, expected to do, I think, most of the emotional labor.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. Oh, gosh, that’s true. I mean. I mean, we haven’t even gotten into the whole HR thing of what you do.

Michelle Gladieux:

Right.

Melinda Wittstock:

We just got to talk about that.

Michelle Gladieux:

I’m trying out. I’m. I’m interviewing for a second podcast. Do you ever have a guest come back for part two or not really?

Melinda Wittstock:

I have done. I have done. Because. Because the HR part of this, I mean, everything we’re talking about here does relate to that, because, you know, for a founder, a CEO, any executive, ultimately, it’s about your leadership, right? And what is your leadership like? So, like in an HR scenario where not only are you trying to recruit great people, but, you know, onboard them in such a way that they can be effective, ensure they have the resources they to be effective. And so much of that and the culture of the company is set from the get-go of the company emanates from the founder. Right. It doesn’t necessarily have to continue that way.

Michelle Gladieux:

They had a child. They definitely just gave birth to a baby. So, the baby will resemble the parent in some ways.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. So, mastering who we’re actually being. Right. Like you were talking about my kids and just that kind of role model thing. Thing. I, I mean, I think all of this does definitely play. I can see the connection in your career. What led you to write this book and get really into what it means to communicate with courage.

Melinda Wittstock:

Because to do this effectively in HR, like most people hate HR, it’s like, oh my God, I’m being called in front of HR.

Michelle Gladieux:

Like, okay, I was a corporate director of human resources in a few different industries before I founded my company 20 years ago. And I will say that, yeah, the, the amount of impact that who you’re in the room with and what they may say about you and what you’re saying to yourself probably led me to hope that more people would use courage and wish that I was using a little more or sometimes I would use a little too much. I remember being pulled aside by a CEO in the construction industry that I was reporting directly to in hr. And we had a good relationship, and I really tried to be active part of operations as well, but he pulled me aside once and said, do you know how many times you disagreed with me in that meeting, management meeting. And I’m the only woman, and I’m the youngest person. And I said, no, two, three. And he said it was three. 

Michelle Gladieux:

I was professional. Are you saying I wasn’t professional? And he said, no, no, you were very professional. But I, I’m not used to having someone disagree with me that many times. Don’t do that in front of my team. To which I said, I understand. I can see your point of view. I thought we were debating about what was the best direction to take training and development in the company. And because that’s the part that I quote, unquote own, I had strong opinions about it.

Michelle Gladieux:

So, I thought we were having a brainstorming session about what would be the best direction to go. And he said, basically, I’m glad we talked, and I said, me too, because I was a little green and I think maybe I pushed one too many times. It’s an art in the science, this communication stuff.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s so tricky because, you know, in that scenario, right, where everybody’s, you know, they’ve got their kind of, I don’t know, like, everybody’s ego is at work, their subconscious at work, all that kind of stuff, right. You know, did he feel, like, embarrassed? Would he have preferred; it sounds like that you had shared that with him privately. But on the other hand, if you’re having a brainstorm and it all comes down to the company culture, is, is what’s allowed. Like, are you, are you the type of executive really wants debate? You, you want, you don’t want to suppress good ideas, you want to hear good ideas. I, that’s kind of person I am. I, I, I don’t want my team to feel afraid of, of, of suggesting something that may be a blind spot for me, you know?

Michelle Gladieux:

Yes. And I don’t think I’d be afraid to offer you constructive feedback, but I don’t see, I wouldn’t see many weaknesses, and I bet they don’t either. So they might be a little out of practice with someone who’s very strong. No matter how many times they beg for constructive feedback friends, we’re going to have to find our courage to give it to them. Does that make sense? It does. Well, this, this is a, this is.

Melinda Wittstock:

A challenge for a lot of, you know, founders who are strong leaders, right. And they desperately want, I mean, this is, this is just true of me. Okay? This may not be true of everybody, but for, for me, I really want my team to be able to tell me things. Right. I’m not going to take offense. I’m not going to take it personally. I just genuinely want to hear their ideas. I may not agree with them, but I want to hear and together a bit of their idea and a bit of my idea might be the Eureka chocolate-peanut butter moment.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right? So, like, I want, I want those kind of brains. I want that to happen, but I always underestimate how intimidated somebody might feel. So how can I make that, you know, inspire that culture? But not to the point of insubordination either, Right. So, like, what’s that? Because at the end of the day, I’m a CEO, right? So like, how? Yes.

Michelle Gladieux:

And say I’ve created a free, easy, downloadable, one-page way to get constructive feedback from loved ones and coworkers and customers. I call it the Feedback Challenge. It’s on our website. It’s self-explanatory. But here’s the gist. You’d hand out this one-page homework assignment. Say that you got this assignment from an executive coach on a podcast on on the Wings podcast. And the challenge is, can you hand that to a good handful of people, let’s say five to 15 people.

Michelle Gladieux:

The question on it says something like I’m interested in what you think. I’d like to know one thing that you enjoy about working with me or communicating with me and then one thing you would like to see me sometimes do differently. And I put this sometimes in the instructions so everyone could feel like it was a little bit softer. It’s we feel a little bit more trust when it’s not what do I do poorly and what should I do? Well, just it’s a little smoother than that. And then it’s e fillable, downloadable and folks might give you the gift of actually returning it with information on it and you’d know how they feel about you. So essentially it’s a 360 assessment, but it’s you to me. I hand it to you and say what could I have done better after that podcast, if you fill it out within the week that I ask you to maybe send it on a Monday, ask for it by Friday, you what I end up doing is when I do this feedback challenge for myself, I end up with a lot of nice compliments and they feel each one like sort of a different flower that I hold on to in my mind. And sometimes in writing, sometimes I’ll even print the email, or the person hands it back to me in writing if they’re not.

Michelle Gladieux:

If they’re not, they don’t prefer computer work. And then I notice also that most people have taken the time and the and been caring enough, even if they don’t say it nicely every time, to give me an opportunity to improve or at least see how they think I should improve. And I hold that close to my heart and mind, and I think on that. And then as I interact with them through the rest of the year, I know what they like, and I know what bugs them. And I suppose you could say I could turn up the annoyance, right, or I could turn it down, but that direct feedback challenge is one way to go. Get that a thought. Gladioconsulting.com Very tough to spell, but G L A D I e u x consulting.com I named the company after my parents who are deceased because I wanted to show tribute and love to the amount of emphasis they placed on lifelong education.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s Beautiful. That’ll all be in the show notes. So, like, if you’re driving, jogging, or doing something while you’re listening, don’t worry, it will be there. So wait, Melinda, I have to say.

Michelle Gladieux:

One thing about that construction company president story. When I was reporting to him, I. We think, you know, you and I agree he had ego in the game. When he told me not to disagree with him three times in front of the team, and I said respectfully, I thought we were brainstorming. I had ego in the game, too, because I was, in a way, trying to show off what I knew. And so I think I came off as a bit annoying and my own ego was at play.

Melinda Wittstock:

Ego’s the Enemy. There’s a great book. It’s Ego is the Enemy. Everybody should read that.

Michelle Gladieux:

I’m taking notes. I love that. I’m taking notes as you interview me. Melinda. I am for sure excited to check out Zero Limits. 

Melinda Wittstock:

And I didn’t even study psychology, so, like, I don’t know. You know what I mean? Like.

Michelle Gladieux:

Well, you figured out that it’s the key to everything.

Melinda Wittstock:

It ultimately is that you’re, you know, and I’d call it consciousness, basically figuring out how to be present, you know, right. But, you know, and there’s so many different modalities, so everybody has a different path, you know, to get there. But, you know, you’re on this journey in life, and you. And you. And it’s. It’s a learning journey. 

Melinda Wittstock:

So, I love the emphasis on that sort of self-forgiveness, practice, not perfection. I mean, there’s so many great things here, and we haven’t really gotten into the HR piece. So, you’ll have to come back because I think there’s a lot of this that really can be applied in terms of how you build a great team culture. Right. And how you really get the best out of your people. Right. And not only attract.

Melinda Wittstock:

Attracting the type of people that you want to work with, but the setting them up for success and how HR itself can be reimagined. So, it’s not an us against them kind of scenario, which it ends up being in a lot of. Kind of corporate scenarios. If you have just a few words just about that theme as we wrap up, that would be amazing.

Michelle Gladieux:

The us versus them mentality between other departments and HR.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. Remember, between people where they feel, oh, my God, like this. You know, like I’m being called HR. Oh, my God. Right.

Michelle Gladieux:

We’re between first and second shift, second and third Shift, third shift and first shift, office and warehouse, etc. We all, you know, it’s the Dr. Seuss situation with the star bellied sneetches. Some have stars, some don’t. We do a good job of dividing ourselves. So, I would say the most courageous, emotionally intelligent thing to do would be start with yourself and see if you can answer the question where am I strong and where am I weak? As a communicator. And if you don’t have any answers, then ask folks around you whom you trust if you get a bad feeling as they give you feedback that you cannot trust what they’re saying. Get some professional help like a coach, a trainer, a counselor, a teacher, and know yourself.

Michelle Gladieux:

And then look at everyone else around you, those that you prefer to work with, those that you don’t prefer to work with. Give everybody some, some room in which to be different from you and try to respect and understand their motivations while you also uphold your own tough stuff. It’s because Melinda asks deep, hard questions that I’m getting deep on all of you. But I want to say I’ve been taking notes, Melinda, and one of the things I wrote down, I thought, I’m going to read that. I’m going to read that before I go to sleep tonight and learn from it again. I wrote down that you said figure out how to be present. Which is hilarious because when I see that tonight around 11:00pm I’ll think, oh, okay, yeah, I’m just going to figure out how to be present as a communicator. But that’s what we have to do.

Michelle Gladieux:

So, you can read the room and read yourself and read others.

Melinda Wittstock:

100% and put your phone down. Yeah, put your phone down.

Michelle Gladieux:

Yep. Have a good handshake. Learn to make eye contact. If you’re, if you’re working on video meetings, how you show up there matters too. We can feel your energy. Yeah. And if people want to talk to me, by the way, I’m happy to have a conversation. Could I share my phone number with your listeners?

Melinda Wittstock:

Sure, yeah, if you want to.

Michelle Gladieux:

Yeah, I’m going to. I’m going to because I think that, you know, the bravest will say, what do you mean about this? Or I disagree with you about that. And we might be able to have a five- or ten-minute quick conversation and teach each other something. So anyway, my cellphone number is 260-450-4202. Based out of Fort Wayne, Indiana with a team of eight in the Midwest and we like to work around the U.S. amazing.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, Michelle, thank you so much for putting on your wings and flying with us today.

Michelle Gladieux:

Thank you for the 900 plus episodes. You’re a rock star.

Melinda Wittstock:

Aw, thank you.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Melinda Wittstock:

Michelle Gladieux is the author of the award-winning book Communicate with Courage and President of Gladieux Consulting, offering executive coaching on communication and leadership as well as strategic planning around the U.S.

Melinda Wittstock:

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Melinda Wittstock:

That’s it for today’s episode. Head on over to WingsPodcast.com – and subscribe to the show. When you subscribe, you’ll instantly get my special gift, the WINGS Success Formula. Women … Innovating … Networking … Growing …Scaling … IS the WINGS of Inspired Business Formula …for daily success in your business and life. Miss a Wings episode? We’ve got hundreds in the vault, all with actionable advice and epiphanies. Check them out at MelindaWittstock.com or wingspodcast.com. You can also catch me on LinkedIn or Instagram @MelindaAnneWittstock. We also love it when you share your feedback with a 5-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify or wherever else you listen, including Podopolo where you can interact with me and share your favorite clips.