899 Nancy Lyons: Future of Work

Melinda Wittstock:

Coming up on Wings of Inspired Business:

Nancy Lyons:

Well, I think that the reason that this feels so hard to us is because we want to keep leaning back. We want to lean into what we’ve already done, what’s already worked for us, what we know works. And we’re not spending a lot of time really exploring what could work. And we’re not including the people that it impacts the most. Like when the CEO mandates everybody come back to work, that CEO doesn’t have the same set of expectations around their work. Any CEO can probably work from wherever they want. So, they’re really asking the rank and file to come in. And I really believe we are focused on the wrong things. Rather than focusing on where we work, we should really be shifting our focus to how we work. And how includes how we intentionally create that culture that’s reflective of our values, how we create connection points, how we invest in each other, how we encourage real relationships.

Melinda Wittstock:

Quiet Quitting. The Great Resignation. What does it take to create a workplace culture that attracts, inspires, and retains great talent? Nancy Lyons, the CEO and co-founder of Clockwork, says no one does great work if they’re worried or if they can’t bring their whole self to work and that’s why she’s an outspoken advocate for making workplaces more inclusive, flexible, and adaptable. Today we talk about the future of work, why traditional hierarchies are obsolete, and how to operationalize your values in the workplace.

Melinda Wittstock:

Hi, I’m Melinda Wittstock and welcome to Wings of Inspired Business, where we share the inspiring entrepreneurial journeys, epiphanies, and practical advice from successful female founders … so you have everything you need at your fingertips to build the business and life of your dreams. I’m all about paying it forward as a five-time serial entrepreneur, so I started this podcast to catalyze an ecosystem where women entrepreneurs mentor, promote, buy from, and invest in each other. Because together we’re stronger, and we all soar higher when we fly together and lift as we climb.

Melinda Wittstock:

Today we meet an inspiring entrepreneur who has made it her mission to reimagine the future of work, tackling critical issues such as the evolving desire for hybrid work setups, the necessity of building cultures of trust, and the challenges posed by the irreversible changes brought on by the pandemic. Nancy Lyons is the CEO and co-founder of the consultancy Clockwork, and today she shares why traditional leaders often struggle to adapt to these new realities and foster genuine relationships in a remote or hybrid setting. Today we talk about how to create a great workplace culture, how to tackle the impact of automation, AI, and other emerging technologies, along with the impact of social media and political division in aspiring to align teams around shared values.

Melinda Wittstock:

Nancy will be here in a moment, and first, a heartfelt plea to all my entrepreneurial sisters (and brothers) busy building your dream businesses. Much is at stake in our upcoming US elections – our rights, our freedoms, and the very democracy and rule of law that affords us the opportunities to start, innovate, and build our businesses. Many of us may be too busy to pay attention to the day-to-day rough and tumble of politics, so today with just 21 days before Election Day, please make sure you, your friends, and your family are registered to vote and have a plan to get to the polls on November 5^th. And please cast your vote for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz. This is not an ordinary election where we can argue about marginal tax rates. It’s existential. If you’re a regular Wings listener, you know a lot about me, but not necessarily that my academic focus was the rise of fascist and authoritarian regimes or that as a journalist and former BBC anchor I reported on politics around the world, and saw firsthand the signs, dangers and impacts of autocracy and extremism. Simply put, we are at a tipping point in the US, with a former President saying he will be a dictator on day one, use the force of the military and courts on his political opponents, and round up more than 12 million immigrants, many of them here legally. A man who sent scarce covid testing equipment to the murderous Russian dictator Vladimir Putin while 10,000 Americans were dying every day. A man who has said repeatedly that women should be punished for getting abortions, and denying us access to life saving healthcare. A man who inherited $443 million and went on to bankrupt 6 of his own companies. A convicted felon also held liable for business fraud and sexual abuse. A man who incited an insurrection when he couldn’t accept his loss in the 2020 election. I could go on. And then there is Kamala Harris, a woman from a humble background who excelled against many odds as a prosecutor, the district attorney of the fifth largest economy in the world, California, a US senator, vice president. A woman of compassion – a woman who believes strength is about lifting people up and not punching down – a woman who has pledged to make it easier for business owners to find investment for their businesses, including a $50,000 tax credit – a woman who believes women should have autonomy over their own bodies – and a woman that believes in our democracy. The choice is clear, and I hope you’ll use your right to vote to invest in our future as a country that honors your rights, your freedoms, and your opportunities to thrive and prosper. Register and vote. November 5^th. The future is in our hands.

Melinda Wittstock:

Now to today’s episode. We’re talking about the future of work with Nancy Lyons, whose consultancy Clockwork focuses on transforming businesses and business leadership through experience design, technology for change enablement, and creating workplace cultures that support human complexities, nuances and intricacies. She’s also the author of the interactive Project Management: Pixels, People, and Process, A Human-Centered Approach to Producing Digital Products, and most recently, Work Like a Boss: A Kick-in-the-Pants Guide to Finding (and Using) your Power at Work.

Melinda Wittstock:

Let’s put on our wings with the inspiring Nancy Lyons and be sure to download the podcast app Podopolo so we can keep the conversation going after the episode.

[INTERVIEW]

Melinda Wittstock:

Nancy, welcome to wings.

Nancy Lyons:

Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, let’s just get straight to it. What are the biggest problems with work these days and workplace culture?

Nancy Lyons:

Well, you know, do we want to be in the office? Do we want to be at home? Do we want to honor the fact that hybrid is our reality forever? Do we trust people that we hire? Are we building cultures of trust? I think the biggest issue is, you know, the pandemic ushered in change that we can’t go back from. But I think, you know, very traditional leaders are really struggling with how to manage that change and how to create culture in the context of that change, because people are convinced that if we aren’t near each other, then we aren’t actually fostering real relationships. That’s probably the hottest issue that I’m seeing out in the world. But certainly, work is changing as we speak. Automation and AI and other emerging technologies are making people question where they want to be and whether or not their jobs are, you know, in any danger. Work is always sort of generating new topics to talk about and be concerned about, and people are always willing to be anxious. I also think the political landscape is impacting work in a really big way. People are really worried about, you know, the divisiveness in the country, what it means for the average Joe, and where we’re headed, and really what the solution is if we don’t figure each other out.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, so many things to unpack there. I want to pick up on this concept of change because most people really fear change is very anxiety producing for a lot of people. I think entrepreneurs are better at managing that because we are all about change, you learn to accept it. But in a very established workplace culture, just the concept of change is difficult. You focus on helping executive teams, leaders, folks, really be able to manage that change. what is the best way to just get comfortable with change, because it’s the only thing we can actually take for granted.

Nancy Lyons:

Isn’t that true? Yeah, I think I was just in a meeting this morning with a large global organization, and the entire reason for the meeting was to talk about just sort of shifting mindsets to prepare for change. They’re on the brink of a major transformation, and we’re dealing with many countries, many regions, many languages, different expectations, and an organization that, for the most part, is used to operating in silos, as so many corporate entities are. And I think that certainly the Internet ushered in a dramatic amount of change. But I don’t think we really anticipated what was ahead of us. I think we thought that the idea that we can connect from anywhere and create more flexible workplaces and more flexibility just in our work, I think that really felt like that was the push and the pandemic just ushered in enormous amounts of change. But also, what I like to refer to as an existential crisis. We were calling it the great resignation.

Nancy Lyons:

Then we talked about quiet quitting. But the truth of the matter is, I think a lot of people had several years in their homes to think about the hamster wheel and whether or not they wanted to continue to be on it. And I think, you know, a lot of folks sort of came to the conclusion that they don’t have a choice, but they want work to feel better. Meanwhile, you know, we live in a capitalistic society, and the expectation is that we are always busy, we are always producing, we are always moving forward. And I just think the combination of the angst that the world is feeling, the emerging technologies that are ushering in change at a pace that we’ve never seen before, and the idea that revenue is everything driving growth, scaling and driving revenue are the pressure and the pressure to innovate. I think, you know, all of these workplaces are really under enormous pressure to embrace change.

Nancy Lyons:

Do you have kids? Do you have children?

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, I do.

Nancy Lyons:

Yeah. Okay, so are they older? Are they younger?

Melinda Wittstock:

They’re college age.

Nancy Lyons:

Okay, so I have an 18-year-old. And when you have children, we all know this story. People tell you all the time, don’t deviate from their routine when they’re toddlers. If you deviate from their routine, they will eat you alive. And we talk about it as if it’s the single stage in life. But the truth of the matter is, humans like their routines. And, you know, in the pre pandemic times, we liked our commute the way it was.

Nancy Lyons:

We liked our coffee when we had it. We wore what we wore. You know, everything sort of fell into place, and then everything was upended. And work isn’t snapping back. People are forcing change to accommodate the truth about their lives. But in addition to that, we’re all feeling pressure to drive numbers, and leaders are, you know, experimenting with ways to fully engage their folks. And when they’re thinking fully engaged, they want more. And when we’re thinking engaged and cared about, we want less.

Nancy Lyons:

So, I think really getting humans aligned with the values of the organization and the business goals and using technology in an efficient and effective and productive way to support those business goals while also allowing humans to have some space to be is something that we’re seeing all the time, working in the technology space. And those are things that my company spends a lot of time grappling with and partnering with our clients to solve and create a way forward.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. And add to that the generational schisms, too.

Nancy Lyons:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. Because just the expectations of what people actually want from their lives. So, you’ve got Gen Z, really the largest consumer block now making decisions about what they buy and who they do business with based on much more of a values alignment. Right. And also, like, who they work for and such and coming up with a very different parenting…

Nancy Lyons:

Oh, yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

…Than before. So, there’s all these ways where people just don’t even, it almost comes down to, like, don’t even know how to talk to each other.

Nancy Lyons:

It’s true. And, you know, I think that we put a lot, I think we put a lot of weight on that sort of generational, those chasms between generations. But I actually think we’re more alike than we are different.

Nancy Lyons:

Gen X and boomers raised young people with agency, and we were not raised… You know, my parents looked at me like I was furniture. Right. And they wanted me to follow some of the same. I mean, I love them, but, you know, I was a child of the eighties. We were latchkey kids. You know, nobody came to my concerts or games or, and it didn’t seem like I was neglected.

Nancy Lyons:

Right. And now, and I know that as a parent, I made very different choices. And so, we raised our children to really understand that they do have some power, regardless of their title, regardless of their role inside of an organization. And I think the biggest resentment between the generations is Gen Z. And even millennials know how to ask for what they want. And we believed Gen X very especially speak from not only work that we’ve done research that we’ve done, but also just my own experience. We believed we had to work our way up or work our way to being seen and heard and valued, and the millennials and Zs are coming into the workplace expecting to be heard and valued.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. And so, we think, okay, earn it. Right? And then, no, I’m enough as I am.

Nancy Lyons:

Right, exactly. And I don’t think they’re wrong. I mean, I think that, you know, that’s. I mean, when we think about some of the stuff that’s entrenched in our DNA, you know, a lot of workplace baggage and patterns and traditional ways of working and valuing workers, a lot of that was decided when we were industrialized. You know, while we’ve. We’ve adapted to different technologies, and we’ve certainly taken advantage of some of the flexibility it allows us. We also have this expectation that butts and seats somehow mean something different and that we have to produce a thing in order to value our work. And I think women are especially guilty of that.

Nancy Lyons:

Unless I’m making a thing, it’s hard to charge for or think about the value of my contribution, my thinking, my experience. And I think young people are recognizing that the energy that they bring to a given task assignment opportunity is valuable. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. I mean, we say this often on this podcast, right. In the context of leadership, often it’s like, who you’re being as much as what you’re doing.

Nancy Lyons:

In fact, absolutely.

Melinda Wittstock:

Maybe even more so. And, you know, about women is really interesting to me because I think it was part of that, proving our competency. So, it was kind of heads down thing where we were, like, doing, doing, doing, doing, and equating our value with doing just given. Given the change of women coming into the workforce, not necessarily having any great role models other than men and that kind of whole proving game and sacrificing as a result, a lot of the things that really are our best things like intuition, empathy, the ability to really foster community, to really develop relationships, we’re really good at that. But you see the men doing that on golf courses and women not so much. Right. And we sort of lose for that, for not really leaning into a lot of our kind of natural abilities. Do you see that in the schism in terms of how men and women are approaching the workforce or particularly leading their teams?

Nancy Lyons:

Absolutely. But, you know, I just gave a keynote on Monday to a women’s group, a large women’s group. And one of the things that was central to that particular talk was the idea that women are absolutely best suited to drive business into the future. And it’s because of those things that are inherently, or that we believe culturally are inherently feminine, if you will. I think as we look at AI and other technologies, sort of automating basic, tedious tasks, and we start thinking about how will jobs get, how will jobs be pushed aside by AI? And are our jobs at risk? I think when we look at what women bring to the table, they’re perfectly suited to actually drive business. And I think it gets that much more interesting and nuanced when we think about intersectionality. I think building empathy and, and solidarity is something that women are really good at, collaborating, fostering alliances. I think understanding and supporting the unique challenges that women face gives us an opportunity to create more inclusive and effective workplaces.

Nancy Lyons:

So, yes, I absolutely believe that women are entrenched in some old ways of working and believing that they have to produce an artifact to be of value. But I also think that as we continue to sort of explore the future of work, it’s going to become really clear that women are really well suited to be the leaders to bring us into the next iteration of work.

Melinda Wittstock:

Exactly. I think it’s an opportunity. We started out talking about change, and AI is many things. It’s like a knife. It’s a tool, it’s also a weapon, right. But it’s really an opportunity to reimagine this in a really creative way. Like, in the best case, AI enables people to be self-actualized, really find and focus on their unique genius. The grunt work or all the stuff that’s just sort of the task, sort of stuff handled in its best case. And of course, jobs will change like no Cotton Ginny anymore, you know what I mean? And so, it requires a lot of retraining, but also just, you know, allowing ourselves to be creative.

Melinda Wittstock:

And this is where entrepreneurship plays a role. So, talk to me a little bit about the change enablement practice at clockwork, like the types of organizations, companies you’re working with and what that process is to guide people through what are pretty tumultuous times.

Nancy Lyons:

Sure. Well, you know, my company has been around for 22 years. I’ve been in the technology space for my entire career. So as long as the Internet has been mainstream, I have been working with Internet technologies. And for a long time, I think people really overvalued the technology and believed that it would solve the problem. And so, we saw a lot of significant investment in all sorts of systems to help create efficiencies in the enterprise. And what inevitably happened time and time again was those investments would, those technology solutions would fail because we weren’t taking people with us. And clockwork started in the same place.

Nancy Lyons:

We build software so that software can manifest as an app on a mobile device, it can manifest as a very complicated web system. It can be e commerce, it can be digital asset management, it can be middleware where getting systems to talk to each other or cleaning up things like legacy, where inside of organizations. We’ve been doing that forever. And about ten years ago, it became really clear that most organizations weren’t thinking through the impact that these technology systems would have on the people and the teams that actually run the business. And so, we built a change practice, a change strategy practice to do change management, change enablement for our clients, so that we were certain that when we implemented a very oftentimes solution, that the humans were not only engaged in the actual process of delivering that solution, but able to take the baton from us as a vendor partner and evolve that solution and manage it going forward. So, we were removing unhealthy dependencies, we were creating new opportunities inside of the organization. And it can be as sort of straightforward and even sort of boring as workflow governance, communication, planning, just really sort of straightforward, the planning aspects of change. What we often do is we find ourselves inside of organizations, conducting workshops, like working with leadership to prioritize what the real issues are, understand them, and then research by way of interviews and workshops and focus groups, what common issues are occurring across organizations.

Nancy Lyons:

And then really develop a roadmap for managing those issues, but engaging the client to work with us in building that solution, not just the tech solution, but the change solution too. And that’s everything from messaging to process changes and updates and evolution, to eLearning opportunities or internal learning systems. I mean, it can look like all sorts of things, but the bottom line is our change strategists are in place to really listen to the organization in a way that sometimes the people who are prioritizing the technology don’t often give themselves the space to do. And I think when we do that, not only do we improve our clients culture by including the people who often feel excluded, but we’re also really ensuring ROI on the solution that we’re building with them to begin with.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, when we talk about, say, workplace culture and things that really need to take place just to drive innovation to results, have the best ideas, have teams working very well together and really foster that collaboration. It is actually hard to do on a zoom, right? Like without the kind of human connection. And it’s very easy for team members that don’t feel engaged or maybe aren’t in the right seats, very easy for them to hide. And it’s much harder for leaders to, I don’t know, measure or hold people to account in a way.

Melinda Wittstock:

I speak as someone on my fifth company now that started in the middle of the pandemic. So, we’ve only been remote. And when your critical thing is innovation and rapid pace innovation and you’re trying to do this on a Zoom meeting and on Slack and whatnot. I know personally I really miss that human connection because it’s so much easier to kind of collaborate when you can read people their kind of body language. How best, or what are the tips for leaders to kind of manage that, whether it’s hybrid or full on remote? What do you suggest?

Nancy Lyons:

Well, I think that the reason that this feels so hard to us is because we want to keep leaning back. We want to lean into what we’ve already done, what’s already worked for us, what we know works. And we’re not spending a lot of time really exploring what could work. And we’re not including the people that it impacts the most. Right? Like when the CEO mandates everybody come back to work, that CEO doesn’t have the same set of expectations around their work. And let’s be honest, just about any CEO can probably work from wherever they want. So, they’re really asking the rank and file, and that’s, for lack of a better term, folks, to come in. And I really believe we are focused on the wrong things.

Nancy Lyons:

I think that rather than focusing on where we work, we should really be shifting our focus to how we work. And how includes how we intentionally create that culture that’s reflective of our values, how we create connection points, how we invest in each other, how we encourage real relationships. One of the things that I talk about a lot, I’m a big fan of the late Professor Segal Barsad, who was a professor at the Wharton school who spent her entire career, really researching and sharing out information about this idea of companionate love. You know, we’ve created this idea that work is where we go to work with people that aren’t really our friends. I mean, and if you have one, we’ve seen all the articles about it. If you have one friend, work will be more fulfilling. Right. And I believe we can do better than that.

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Melinda Wittstock:

And we’re back with Nancy Lyons, CEO and co-founder of Clockwork.

[INTERVIEW CONTINUES]

Nancy Lyons:

And so, I think it’s really about engaging teams and departments and divisions and really determining what do we need to feel connected to one another, to feel invested in one another and the outcomes we are collaborating toward and really treat it like a design thinking exercise. And we do a lot of that for our clients, where we are exploring what is the next version of this organization and how do we align where we’re going in terms of culture with where we’re going in terms of product and services, so that we don’t leave our customers behind in experimenting with how we work best. And I really believe that’s it. I don’t think there’s any one size fits all. All I know for us; we have an annual all staff where we fly everybody in. Now, we do have a building, and we are based in Minneapolis, but I have staff in Canada, Florida, Portland, Oregon, Texas. You know, they’re all over, and it is important for them to see and be with each other for certain periods. But I also know, like, you know, I have a woman in Portland, and, you know, she comes in for the all-staff.

Nancy Lyons:

But I have marveled at the depth of the relationships that she’s cultivated with the folks on her team, but also outside of her team. And that’s just one example. And I think leadership has to set sort of the direction, but it’s not, you know, one of the things that I feel really strongly about, and I do a lot of speaking about, is this idea that we all have a responsibility to create the culture. It is not about the leadership dictating what it is. I also think, you know, you brought up values relative to Gen Z earlier. I also think values are central to everything we do. And I think in the past, we made the mistake of treating them like marketing speak or treating them like they’re aspirational. The truth is they’re on a website.

Melinda Wittstock:

Or something like that.

Nancy Lyons:

Exactly.

Melinda Wittstock:

They’re not actually operationalized as a high priority. I mean, that’s something I’m very passionate about.

Nancy Lyons:

In fact, me too.

Melinda Wittstock:

If you say that these things are your values, like innovation or abundance, mindset or integrity. What does that actually mean? What does that actually mean in people’s day to day work? How is that manifesting? So, if you say innovation, you’ve got to allow people to fail. So, what does that look like? What do you kind of learn from their failure? Do you celebrate failure? Right?

Nancy Lyons:

Do you?

Melinda Wittstock:

Okay, so what did we all learn? So, everybody else can learn from that? I mean, there are a whole series of things to do, but it requires a, requires a consciousness of that, prioritization of it, which I don’t see a lot of people doing. I think maybe, you know, maybe a lot of entrepreneurs with early-stage companies that have to persuade people to come work for them and get top talent and they don’t have a lot of money to pay those people. You have to be good at this, otherwise you’re not going to get great talent. You know, you have to be.

Nancy Lyons:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I do think that. I do think that values are what we need to center that exploration around. Those values are the things that anchor us to the organization and our purpose, quite frankly, because I think that’s what a lot of people are looking for in this existentialist moment in time. I think people are looking to remember why they’re doing this in the first place and organizations forget that.

Melinda Wittstock:

If we’re talking about the human condition, most people just want to be seen and heard, you know what I mean? And so, you know, whether it’s remote, a hybrid or whatever, you know, specific things that, that leaders can do to enable that, because if you’re just kind of a number, you’re just showing up and doing a thing and, you know, and nobody’s really listening to you. I mean, this is particularly for Gen Z.

Melinda Wittstock:

And requiring feedback and these things and how to do that in a way that works. I wonder whether a lot of leaders, particularly from older generations, kind of fear that because they think it’s going to slow down or hurt productivity when probably the reverse is true, like, kind of like a go slower to go faster. What’s your perspective on that?

Nancy Lyons:

I mean, you and I are in complete agreement, I think that this idea that people what we all want, and it’s interesting because we can distill that those are basic human needs. And actually, that’s the thing that should never divide us. We want to be seen. We want to be heard. We want to be valued. And it’s amazing to me that we’re so far apart or so polarized in this country because humans want the same things. We want safety, we want opportunity. But I also think that this idea that to be seen and valued, I have to be in front of you or in front of someone versus us really using technology to help us get to that place where we are truly able to value an individual’s contribution.

Nancy Lyons:

And I think challenging people to be involved in their own professional development, challenging people to recognize their own responsibility, but also accountability for the health of the culture, the alignment of the teams, that is not something we can demand. It is something we have to ask for over and over and over again. And we need a hiring strategy that insists that we are adding people to the mix, that understand that they are accountable for exactly that. So, I absolutely agree with you. I just think you can’t. When we say everybody has to come back to work next week or everybody has to come back three days a week, I think we’re sort of missing the point. And it’s interesting, too, because a lot of you have made the distinction between being an entrepreneur and being an employee, or you’ve implied that sort of distinction. I think a lot of CEO’s inside of corporate have never actually been entrepreneurs.

Nancy Lyons:

And so, they’re relying on these old ways of working and being and leading. And actually, I would change that word to managing. There’s a difference between leading and managing. You know, I often remind people that that word entrepreneur is a French word. It was derived from, you know, a phrase that means ‘entreprene’ to do something. And the only difference between us as entrepreneurs and everybody else is we had the guts to do something. And I think in order for us to create this next iteration of work collaboratively across business and industry, we have to empower people to take risks, take initiatives, take initiative, be accountable and do things instead of waiting for permission or relying and leaning into their job description for, you know, detailed instructions on how to show up for work. We need to hire brains and character and spirit and enthusiasm and the job skills piece.

Nancy Lyons:

I mean, unless you’re my brain surgeon, I want you to know how to do my, my brain surgery without me having to train you. But I do think we have to think differently about how we hire, because it’s the, it’s the type of person, I think intrapreneurs are more valuable than ever inside of organizations. And I think leaders are ‘leaderly’, whether or not the title on their business card says that they are a leader. I think just thinking differently and hierarchy, I mean, technology subverts hierarchy. The democratization of information and slacks and all these other business systems people are talking to each other and having big ideas. How do we channel those for the good of the organization is the big question.

Melinda Wittstock:

Gosh, 100%. I think that’s really interesting that this connection between these technologies, which actually level the playing field and if deployed correctly, allow for really efficient communication, like making communication better. So that’s the other part of your practice in terms of getting people, organizations to leverage technology correctly so it doesn’t alienate, but it actually brings people together. And, like, we have a great example of this with social media, right? I guess, you know, I was a huge innovator in social media, and my entrepreneurial career is innovating at the intersection of media and technology and now blockchain and these other technologies. So, in the beginning of social media, I was one of those people that were like, oh, this is amazing. It’s going to bring us together, and how wonderful is this? And then, in actual fact, it’s divided people into these, like, echo chambers and, like, kind of news, like choose your own facts kind of thing, and. And has allowed people to hide anonymously, allowed them to be really mean. You know what I mean? They would say things on social media that they would not say directly to a person’s face.

Melinda Wittstock:

So how can we avoid that same kind of thing happening in a workplace? Because people have been trained in this kind of social media soup.

Nancy Lyons:

Right. Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

When the nation is just so fractured, are we going to be a democracy or are we going to be an autocracy? Like, that’s. That’s a real question for everybody right now in this country and around the world, and, like, that’s obviously going to be impacting workplace cultures as well.

Nancy Lyons:

Oh, yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

How do you see it in that whole parenthood paradigm?

Nancy Lyons:

Absolutely. You know, I think it’s interesting. I think you’re absolutely right. And that’s a whole podcast in and of itself, but. I think social media got us to this place of polarization. I think it’s a huge contributor to where we’re at in terms of not understanding each other and families busting up and, you know, neighbors not agreeing with one another.

Nancy Lyons:

I think we have to be more curious. I think. I think it’s conversation and interaction that’s going to diffuse that conflict. It’s diffusing conflict through inquiry. It’s being curious about how other people think and really getting to the heart of their issues. I think asking more open-ended questions instead of leading questions to try to get somebody to think the way I do. I recently had an exchange with a friend on Facebook who I live in Minneapolis, and she tried to suggest that the people who were involved in the uprisings and the destruction of property were not penalized for their involvement. And she lives in another state.

Nancy Lyons:

She’s decidedly far away from me in terms of her political beliefs. And I just. Instead of calling her out on her page and making it a public argument that so many people tend to get really hot about, I sent her a message, and I said, can we talk about this? Because I’m living here, and I can tell you a totally different story, and this happened in my backyard. But I also think it’s incumbent upon all of us to really, really practice our critical thinking, to explore diverse content, to actively seek out different perspectives, to engage in curiosity, challenges so set. You know, I want to evolve. I want to operate outside side of my bubble. So, I try to challenge myself to find credible sources. Now, the problem there is there’s credible, as a matter of opinion, sadly.

Nancy Lyons:

But I think being active listeners, embracing the idea that I don’t know everything, but wanting to be committed to continuous learning and wanting to respect people enough to listen to them. And it’s really hard right now because some of these political issues have become personal. Like, for myself. Myself, for instance, I am a member of the LGBTQ community. I have a wife, and I have a son who happens to be a person of color. So, there’s a lot of issues that are being talked about in a really dehumanizing way that get me really triggered and straight. Cis white people don’t have to think about, don’t have to live in fear because they’re not worried about legislation coming out to condemn their lives and make them more difficult.

Nancy Lyons:

We try to legislate humanity, and that’s a giant mistake. And that makes its way into the workplace, which is why those values are so important, because before anybody gets through the door, they should know what you stand for, know, you know, get a sense of what the culture is like from those values, from, you know, what should never just be marketing speak that you make available for the world. I do think social media is a big problem. I do think we as individuals, have more control over how, you know, this plays out in our own lives than maybe we actually exercise. I do think that there’s opportunities for us to just be more mindful and thoughtful in our engagement. Whether or not we can encourage others to do that, I don’t know. But I’m starting with me and hoping for more conversations that bring me that connect me to people instead of disconnecting me from them.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, it all comes down to good communication and good empathetic. And I think you said being curious. I think this is really, really important. There’s so much more I want to talk about, Nancy. I want to make sure that we don’t avoid the issue of DEI because it’s being used almost as a racial kind of epithet at the moment. And there are, like, Microsoft, John Deere pulling back from their DEI initiatives, even though all the statistics, all the research shows that companies prosper, and they do better, they have better results when they are focused on diversity and inclusion, inclusion and equity.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, what is your take on that? How are you managing all of that?

Nancy Lyons:

Well, you know, I think it’s really disheartening when organizations, when these large, influential companies like Google and Microsoft pull back on their DEI efforts, because I think it sends a message that the work is optional, and it simply is not. And it’s not because, you know, regardless of which way the political. You know, what is it? The political landscape sort of shifts. We are dealing in a more globalized society simply by virtue of how technology is connecting us. So, I think that we can afford to minimize the value of DEI. I think instead, I think those organizations owe it to their. I mean, they have global workforces. They owe it to their people to double down on those efforts and advocate for the importance of the work, especially in the middle of these challenging times.

Nancy Lyons:

And, you know, I just told you that I’m a member of the LGBTQ community. Target is right here in my hometown. And, you know, target is a great example of an organization that I feel has great opportunity to influence and they can afford it. Right. Like, that’s the other thing. We’re so concerned about numbers that we’re trying to make everybody happy when we know in our heart of hearts it’s not possible to make everybody happy. I do think that, you know, in these moments, we need to call on smaller organizations to step up and fill that void. And that’s why my company remains committed.

Nancy Lyons:

Because if the bigger organizations can’t be the example that the world needs, then we will be, because we are respecting and accepting sort of the direction that we are going as a culture, whether we can legislate against it or not. That’s not going to change the reality that white folks are going to be in the minority in the very near future and really understanding, you know, sort of where we came from and how we were conditioned and how that impacts our workplaces, the people we work with, our relationships, basically all aspects of our lives. And really understanding what of that baggage we need to let go of and retrain ourselves around and think differently around is of critical importance for us to operate in a successful way. So I don’t think we can avoid it forever. It’s going to become a much more glaring issue sooner over later. But, you know, I made a very flip comment recently when somebody asked me, you know, what do we need to do to get leadership inside of organizations to really recognize the importance of this? I said something wildly inappropriate that I’m going to repeat for your audience, which could get me backlash. I said, people, you know, leaders have to die. There’s a generation that has to move along because they’re not hearing what.

Nancy Lyons:

And I’m not young, I’m no spring chicken, you know, but I, playing out…

Melinda Wittstock:

…so profoundly in our political process, I think this is interesting, too, because it just behooves people to have a team that’s actually relatable to consumers and, I mean, who they actually sell to. But also from an innovation perspective, other people see things that you don’t see, right. Like, it just makes business sense in a million ways.

Melinda Wittstock:

So much more to talk about.

Nancy Lyons:

Excellent. Yeah, we do sound like we have a lot in common, and we think similarly. You also sound like a really good friend of mine, so it’s been weird just sitting here with you in my ear because you sound like this pal that I have that I would just say anything to. So, we’re lucky it didn’t get weird.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, that’s lovely. That’s wonderful. Thank you. I want to make sure that everybody knows how to find you and work with you. You’ve got two books. We’ll make sure that those are in the show notes and such. But for any company that needs your expertise, what is the best way?

Nancy Lyons:

The best way is to come and find us online@clockwork.com. We also have a small, agile studio that’s madebytempo.com, and you can find me directly@nancylions.com. or on social media, where we may not agree, but I’ll still be respectful.

Melinda Wittstock:

Fantastic. Thank you so much for putting on your wings and flying with us today.

Nancy Lyons:

Thanks for having me.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Melinda Wittstock:

Melinda Wittstock:

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