924 Penny Zenker:

Wings of Inspired Business Podcast – Transcript EP924 – Host Melinda Wittstock Interviews Penny Zenker

Melinda Wittstock:

Coming up on Wings of Inspired Business:

Penny Zenker:

I don’t know that it’s just focus on the customer; I would say focus on feedback, because even within your team, if you don’t have the right team, if your team isn’t happy, they’re going to leave. I believe that feedback creates an iterative process, when we have a feedback loop, so that’s feedback from our customers, feedback from our team, feedback, feedback about, you know, what the results are telling us. I would say creating that iterative loop and really making feedback the most important part of growing your business so that you’re dynamic, you can adapt as you go is vital.

Melinda Wittstock:

Innovating and bringing a new product to market is an iterative process; so too is navigating the ups and downs and twist and turns of growing any business. Penny Zenker is known as the “focusologist”—and in a world overflowing with distractions and an overwhelming abundance of information, Penny shares why the secret of entrepreneurial success is about mastering focus. She shares how her own personal challenges and triumphs led her to create supportive structures and systems that now help entrepreneurs get aligned, adaptable, and yes, focused on what assures growth and success.

Melinda Wittstock:

Hi, I’m Melinda Wittstock and welcome to Wings of Inspired Business, where we share the inspiring entrepreneurial journeys, epiphanies, and practical advice from successful female founders … so you have everything you need at your fingertips to build the business and life of your dreams. I’m all about paying it forward as a five-time serial entrepreneur, so I started this podcast to catalyze an ecosystem where women entrepreneurs mentor, promote, buy from, and invest in each other. Because together we’re stronger, and we all soar higher when we fly together and lift as we climb.

Melinda Wittstock:

Today we meet an inspiring serial entrepreneur, sought-after speaker, bestselling author, and former C-Suite executive of a global top five market research company who now helps entrepreneurs and executives at firms large and small, including Deloitte, Pfizer, SAP and Samsung solve complex problems and find alignment to accelerate business growth.

Melinda Wittstock:

Over the past three decades, Penny Zenker has built and sold multiple multimillion-dollar companies—including the award-winning tech firm Smart Moves she founded and sold to a French company. Penny is also a Tony Robbins Business Coach helping companies double and triple businesses and her TEDx, “The Energy of Thought,” has had over 1 million views worldwide.

Melinda Wittstock:

Penny will be here in a, and first:

[PROMO CREDIT]

Helping women build wealth and make their purpose driven impact on the world through entrepreneurship has always been a mission close to my heart. That’s why eight years ago, I started this podcast to help women succeed as entrepreneurs. Over the years, I’ve driven more than $10 million in sales to the women I’ve featured on this show, and this year I’m taking my investment in female founders to a whole new level as a venture partner of the new firm Zero Limits Capital, where we’re dedicated to investing in highly scalable seed stage startups founded by women and diverse teams – a mission more important than ever as the Trump administration cracks down on anything and everything DEI. We’re looking for innovators with exciting new applications of AI, Blockchain and other emerging technologies that make a social and sustainable impact to change the world. Is this you? If it is, take a moment and tell us about your opportunity at bit.ly/ZLCintake – that’s bit.dot.ly/ZLCintake – capital ZLC lowercase intake. And because I know from 20-plus years of experience raising venture capital, I’m opening up my schedule to help female founders nail their investment strategies and pitch decks at the earliest stages of their companies. Email me at melinda@wingspodcast.com if you’re interested in a consult. That’s melinda@wingspodcast.com.

Melinda Wittstock:

First it was all you, all the time, doing all the things, as a founder with an idea and a dream. As you grew your idea into the earliest stages of a business, you likely got used to doing it all, and after a while, as you started building your team and your business grew, it became harder to know where to best focus your efforts—and hard too to relinquish control. And with these common growth pains likely came overwhelm and burnout.

Melinda Wittstock:

Today we dig deep into the power of focus, and with it the necessity of adaptability as your focus inevitably changes over time with the changing needs and challenges of the business at every phase of growth. Penny Zenker, aka the “focusologist”, has developed proven systems and structures over the years as she grew successive businesses and now helps businesses large and small find clarity in the chaos.

Melinda Wittstock:

From the paradox of control and the pitfalls of micromanagement to the powerful concept of dynamic reassessment from her new book, “The Reset Mindset,” Penny shares important insights that can enable you to achieve more with less.

Melinda Wittstock:

Let’s put on our wings with the inspiring Penny Zenker and be sure to download the podcast app Podopolo so we can keep the conversation going after the episode.

[INTERVIEW]

Melinda Wittstock:

Penny, welcome to Wings.

Penny Zenker:

Hi. It’s great to be here.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, we’re, we’re going to focus right in. You’re the ‘focusologist’. I love that. This is something a lot of entrepreneurs have to learn. Like, where is their focus most necessary? Where does their focus have the most leverage? What led you to become the focusologist?

Penny Zenker:

Well, it’s, it’s been a thread throughout my entire life. And I think that the key is, is because I have a challenge with focusing. So, it’s not that it comes natural, you know, Squirrel! I started businesses and struggled with, you know, how so many things to do and stay on top of so many hats to wear. How does one stay focused on what’s most important? And so, for me, I created some structures that supported me to stay focused on what matters most and just constantly be reassessing. Am I still focused on what matters most? Because without even knowing it, we can get pulled in one direction or another. And then all of a sudden we’re like, whoa, where did that two weeks go? Or whatever, that timeframe.

Melinda Wittstock:

Exactly.

Penny Zenker:

Self-preservation.

Melinda Wittstock:

Especially, especially the early stages of entrepreneurship and there’s so many things that you’re trying to figure out in that early stage as you work towards product-market fit and your first customers. You don’t really necessarily know who your ideal customers are yet. You don’t necessarily know what your ideal price point is. There’s more that you don’t know than you do and really difficult to know at that stage what to focus on. So, talk me through your methodology of how you figure that out.

Penny Zenker:

Well, so as it relates to an entrepreneur, something that I learned early on and then was reinforced over time is there’s really only three ways to grow your business. And if we get really clear on that, it’s very helpful. We either acquire new customers, we increase the average purchase amount, or we increase the frequency of the purchase. So, if you don’t have a lot of experience and you’re in those early stages, and let’s say you don’t have the ability to increase, you know, the average purchase amount, for instance, because you don’t, you’re still figuring that out, right? So, it’s which of those are going to be the direct place that you should focus. So, you know, for me, the way that I started was I wanted to start.

Penny Zenker:

I didn’t have very much money, which I think is typical. My budget was really low, so it was who do I know in my network that I can test this with, that I can see, you know, what is the right pricing? What functionality do people really need? And what are just bells and whistles?

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh, that’s a critical one. Any product that you’re building, whether it’s an app or it’s like a B2B thing, you have a thesis of what your customers want, but you don’t really know.

Penny Zenker:

That’s the problem. Talking to people. One of the first mistakes is I spent a lot of money developing something and allowed us to spend so much time on things that we thought were cool and, you know, we should really have this in there. But at the end of the day, that wasn’t what sold the product. So, you know, I learned quickly that you want to get interactive and iterative as much as possible. So not just in the development, but even more importantly with the customers, the people who are your prospects. Let’s interview them.

Penny Zenker:

Let’s, you know, actually have them test the product and use it, you know, in, in some capacity. You know, depends on what product you’re selling or whatever. But that early feedback is critical for you to ground yourself on the real value of what you’re delivering and getting that customer’s perspective. Because at the end of the day, if you’re focusing on your features and those types of things, that’s not what people want. They want to solve their problem. They need a solution. And we need to be able to speak in their language and also have those things that are going to solve their problem so that we can show them that we can solve it.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. So, if there was one thing, and I think this is probably true throughout the business’s life, there’s one focus. Focus on your customer, right? What do they need problem you’re solving? And if you have a number of different customer sets, of course there’s, you know, you have different personas and such, but relentless focus on that from the earliest days. And I think that’s the biggest mistake that most entrepreneurs make is that they do that too late.

Penny Zenker:

Yes, agreed. Like you said, they just assume that we understand the customer. But I’m going to reframe that a little bit. I don’t know that it’s just focus on the customer; I would say focus on feedback, because even within your team, right, if you don’t have the right team, if your team isn’t happy, they’re going to leave.

Penny Zenker:

I believe that feedback and because it creates an iterative process, when we have a feedback loop, so that’s feedback from our customers, feedback from our team, feedback, feedback about, you know, what the results are telling us. I would say creating that iterative loop and really making feedback the most important part of growing your business so that you’re dynamic, you can adapt as you go. And along the way, that is vital.

Melinda Wittstock:

I mean, the data also, and that feedback and having an organized way to have that information come to you in a way that’s digestible and actionable is also critical. I noticed that everybody says they want data, but they don’t necessarily look at it or know how to use it.

Penny Zenker:

True. That’s very true. And there’s way too much collecting of stuff that isn’t necessary. But AI makes all of this so much easier because we can do a lot of the processing through AI.

Melinda Wittstock:

Exactly. That’s true of market research. It’s true of even finding, finding customers. It’s like there’s so many different ways to use it now, and it’s just going to get better and better and easier. Instead of doing a focus group, putting detailed personas into like a Gemini or a ChatGPT or an Anthropic and saying, okay, here’s the product, here’s the feature, here are all the personas, you know…

Penny Zenker:

But also, what I find for, and maybe you found the same for a lot of early entrepreneurs, they don’t have the systems in place, or they don’t, they don’t collect their numbers, they don’t know what their numbers are. And, and I find that, you know, you can’t adapt and adjust things if you don’t have that feedback, if you don’t know your numbers, if you don’t know how many people you’re talking to and what percentage are converting, then you don’t know that you need to spend more time and how you, what you’re doing is actually improving your conversion or not, right? So, it is important to have a snapshot of some of those key numbers so that you can identify where, where you need to best focus 100%.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, assuming that you’ve got all that down, you’ve got your, you’re really focused on your customer, the feedback and, and, and, and the systems, as a company grows. And your focus can shift as an entrepreneur, you know, into the stages. Because once you’re scaling, you know, as a CEO, you’re building a team, right? So, your focus changes over time. You scaled business, right, that you sold in the IT space. How did your focus change as your role changed, as the company grew? What are some lessons there?

Penny Zenker:

I mean, one of the big things is as your company grows, your team expands. So, understanding what to focus on to support your team is really key. A lot of leaders are not present because they’re busy still serving the customers, which is great, but they’re not bringing those lessons and things to their people or a big lesson that I got was I was a terrible micromanager. And so, as my team grew and it grew quickly, it was like, well, I felt like I needed to do that, to feel in control, to have some semblance of control while things are like, growing so quickly. But it actually had the opposite effect. So, the more I tried to oversee or jump in or take something away, I disempowered the team, and my best people left. And the ones that stayed were apathetic. Right? Because, well, she’s just going to tell me what to do and how to do it.

Penny Zenker:

So, if you, you know, the shift really goes from very often from your customer to your, your people. So that you’re really making sure that your people are, are that you’re fostering creativity, you’re creating that kind of culture that, that helps your business to grow and scale.

Melinda Wittstock:

You know, I am so glad that you raised that point. Because so many people fall into that trap of micromanaging and it’s interesting that you mentioned the word control, right?

Penny Zenker:

Oh, yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

At the early stages, you’re used to controlling everything. You’re doing all the different things, right? And so that transition can be tough. And when something is scaling really rapidly, that’s a dangerous time for a business for exactly the reason that you raised. Because it’s about the team. And if you can’t make that transition, like I understand the human impulse to want to be in control because it feels like it’s out of control. The human tendency is to want to kind of control that, but you can’t. There’s nobody that can do that. And it does, does make your best people leave.

Penny Zenker:

Yeah, it’s a paradox. It’s a paradox because we think that if we add more control then, you know, we’ll, we’ll be able to manage it better. But the truth is, is that the more you try to control, the less control that you have in that context. So, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s about really not just delegating the responsibility to your team, but also the authority so that they feel trusted. Because even though you might be feeling it’s a control thing and I want control and it’s not that I don’t trust these people. They feel like you don’t trust them. And so that’s the disconnect is that you are trying to control comes across as not trusting and then they’re not bringing their best work.

Melinda Wittstock:

Exactly. And it is an interesting paradox because you’re in terms of, so say, sticking with the focus theme, right? So, as you’re growing and you know, hopefully everybody’s aligned, everybody’s aligned on mission and values, and you know, all that kind of stuff where a lot of people go wrong is they don’t have the processes for, you know, successful onboarding. People are unclear about what the results are that are expected of them. So being able to focus on the communication of that, the systems of that empowering people, you know, easier said than done. But should your focus be at that rapid scaling place, like as you transition into that, like if you were to do it again, how would you focus? Where would be most of your time focus most of your energy focused at that stage of a company?

Penny Zenker:

Well, you know, it’s kind of blanket, right? It depends on the circumstance, what your company is. But just to, to bring it back to the, the, the people piece, I think I, I mentioned something in there that you delegate not just the responsibility but the authority. And I think what my focus would be is helping people to foster ownership for their work, which means you know, they’ll make sure if that the process is efficient, right? When they own it and something doesn’t work, they’re going to make it right.

Penny Zenker:

It’s finding that balance between the people and driving ownership and the systems that provide the structure that allow the, the business to scale. So, you know, it’s easy to say you just focus on one thing, but in reality it’s, it’s not really just one thing. It’s being able to balance and know when to zoom in and what to zoom in on and then when to zoom out. Right. Because focus to me isn’t just about attention. And here’s where we put our attention, it’s about attention and intention combined with the strategic direction. So, you know, keeping those in, in balance is, is what I think is, is key.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, you know, that’s a very important point. Because as a CEO, if you’re all in the weeds, you can just miss the main point. You have to be working on your business, not in it. You have to have that 30,000-foot level. With new team members I remind them that I’m best leveraged at that 30,000-foot level because at that level I can see the clouds in the horizon, I can see the, the trends, I can see the headwinds, the tailwinds.

Melinda Wittstock:

When I need to really zoom in and get focused on a detail, I can. But if I’m constantly brought down to earth, missing the thing that’s most critical for the business. I guess it supposes that you, you kind of know yourself, you know your management style, you know where you’re best leveraged.

Penny Zenker:

And, and that’s why, you know, that’s why I say it depends, right? I’m the perfect consultant there. It depends. But it does depend on the person’s leadership style and where they, where they best are and, and who’s on their team, right? So, it’s assessing the situation for what it is and who you are and where things are going.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah.

Penny Zenker:

At the end of the day, the…

Melinda Wittstock:

…Focus is on the people. I mean, we’ve come full circle, right? Because the people your business is about people, you know, your customers, your team, like, you know, and other stakeholders and such. It sounds like you kind of really got into this whole focus thing because it was something that you were mastering yourself. This is such a typical entrepreneurial journey in a way, right? Like we have a particular challenge that we have to solve for ourselves and in solving it for ourselves, we go through, we walk through that journey so we can do it for other people. I mean, is that pretty much the synopsis of how you got to be the focusologist?

Penny Zenker:

Yeah, I mean, I created this word because, you know, we focus is the exception, not the rule today. And so, my latest book that just came out in September called The Reset Mindset, it’s all about dynamic reassessment. And that’s what the focusologist really is. That’s what I’ve come to realize. That that’s been my secret to success is like you said, knowing what to do and when to do it so that you’re focused on the right things that move the needle. Right. And that is about dynamic reassessment.

Penny Zenker:

So, enabling us to constantly check in to see if we are focused on right things. You know, where’s the market today? Where are people? What do they need to be focused on? And so, so this word just came out so that we can actually recommit and relearn to focus because we are. The, the world around us in our environment is designed to disconnect and distract us.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh my God. Yes, I was going to go there because we live in a world of I, I call it infobesity.

Penny Zenker:

Infobesity. That’s good.

Melinda Wittstock:

Infobesity. Yes, it is. Because we have all these kind of empty information calories where our brains are overloaded. Like we, we haven’t evolved fast enough to keep up with the level of information coming at us and, and add to it the fact that some of its disinformation, right? And we live in an attention economy. It’s not just an information economy; it’s an attention economy. So, competing for attention as a, as a business, it can be really hard to navigate like just even the focus of like, oh, do I focus on like TikTok or do I focus on like my LinkedIn or do I this or that just even on the marketing of a business makes it really, really hard.

Penny Zenker:

And 10 people are going to tell you 10 different things. I can’t tell you how many people are like, oh, you should totally be on TikTok. You would make so much money on TikTok or Instagram people. It’s blowing up. And I’m like, yeah, but my target group isn’t there. So even though I might do okay or whatever, that’s not where my main target group is hanging out. And although I could gain some traction, it’s not as much if I took that time and energy and I put it into LinkedIn per se.

Penny Zenker:

Coming back to your point about knowing your customer, knowing where they are, it’s so important that we know the different aspects of our business and we can try different things. I definitely encourage that, you know, because experimentation is part of that dynamic reassessment. But at the same time, we, we do need to narrow it down and say, nope, I’m going to go deep into this area before I go wider into other areas.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. Like, I think people get very diffused and, and, and, and overloaded. Maybe with so much advice that the advice is contradictory. And what worked for one person doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to work for you. Like at the end of the day, every entrepreneurial journey is very different.

Penny Zenker:

Right, Totally.

Penny Zenker:

That’s what makes it so hard. Right. You know, if it was so easy, then everybody, we wouldn’t have these statistics. I don’t know what it is today, but you know that 85% of businesses fail in their first two years. It’s happening because it isn’t as easy as it may seem. And there’s, there are, there are problems with being able to focus on the right things and getting the right people on board. And so, it matters also to get some support. I believe that I’ve always worked with coaches to help to give me some perspective, to make sure that I’m not missing things.

Penny Zenker:

So, I do recommend that people work with outside sources when they can so that it can help them get through those difficult stages of their business.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. One of the things that has always been a tricky thing to navigate when you have the type of business… it needs venture, it needs investment, it needs outside investment.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, the tricky thing is you are out there fundraising, and the investor is looking for traction. And so, you really should be focused on the sales and say, or user growth, you know, depending on the business or like what those kind of key metrics are. But at the same time, it takes a huge amount of energy and attention to go raise money. So, you can get whipsawed around sort of like the fundraising, which is in and of itself almost a full-time job, while at the same time you’re also growing your business.

Penny Zenker:

Yeah, you get to be a juggler. You know, I, I think that a lot of entrepreneurs don’t realize what it is when they get into it. And, and you’re absolutely right that when you’re out there pitching for investment, you know, then you’ve got to have other, other, you’ve got to be able to delegate those other areas so that you can put your full attention to, to getting that investment.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s really true because every hour you’re spending doing like hundreds of investor pitches is hours not spent, you know, doing the big enterprise sale or you know…

Penny Zenker:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

…getting funnels right. Or like really focusing like laser on like, you know, is your monthly active use growing or whatever it is…

Penny Zenker:

Right, right. And the longer it takes you to get that money, the longer it’s going to take you to get the right people and systems in place. Right. It’s a catch 22 on either, on either side of it.

Melinda Wittstock:

It is. And I, I think that, you know, given that this podcast is really aimed at women, women still get less than 2% of the venture money. And, it’s actually running a little bit less than 2% right now.

Penny Zenker:

I didn’t know that. That’s, that’s terrible.

Melinda Wittstock:

And these are for businesses that, that qualify. But when we do get checks, the average seed round check for a woman is about one tenth of the average seed round check for a man. And so, we are working with less. And so, then we go slower. And so, then the opportunities look less big to the… You know what I mean? And it, it, it’s so structural. You do have to do much more with less.

Melinda Wittstock:

You’ve got to master the focus. You’ve got to master how to be really smart with resources. And to be smart with resources implies a relentless focus, like using your money wisely.

Penny Zenker:

Well, I think, I think also, and this is, you know, one of the things that I talk about when I talk about focus is that we shouldn’t forget that our goal isn’t to do more, you know, more with less is what a lot of people say. But the truth is it’s how do we achieve more with less effort. And I think that when we have a constraint, like you just said, these women businesses that, that have less to work with, then they’re focused on making more impact, right, with less effort and less money and time. And that gets them creative. I think that’s. It’s those constraints that get people the most creative. I mean, look at the creativity that came out of COVID as, as awful as it was, totally accelerated so many industries because it broke down barriers, we broke through assumptions, and people got busy getting things done, like getting the right, you know, changes made.

Penny Zenker:

I like to really get people to think outside the box so that they can do things in better ways. Not just because we’ve always done it that way, but how could we be doing it going forward.

Melinda Wittstock:

Well, a great example of that is, say, DeepSeek in AI in China, they couldn’t get Nvidia chips, so they had to figure out a more efficient way of doing it. Ended up coming up with a model that’s just as good, arguably better at a fraction of the cost. That completely changed, you know, AI. And it’s open source, so anyone can use it, you know, right? And so, and that was specifically because of a really significant constraint, inspired that creativity. So, I think you’re really talking about the mindset of this; really mastering this idea that, no, you don’t have to do it all, to have it all say. Or you don’t have to do it every single thing to. Or be, you know, be the Elon Musk person sleeping on the floor. You know what I mean?

Penny Zenker:

Yeah.

Melinda Wittstock:

Like, you do not have to do that. And I think women think that and many, in many cases, and it’s not actually true.

Penny Zenker:

Right. Maybe that deters a lot of women from going into business, because it does, you know, they don’t want to make that sacrifice. If they have a family, then they, you know, they feel like they have to make a choice. Choice. But I know for myself, you know, my own experience is, you know, I did that before I had a family. I, I was working around the clock and, and, and not working smarter. And it’s so much easier and better to, to work smarter. And it is possible.

Melinda Wittstock:

It’s really true. And I, I think it, if it doesn’t dissuade women from going into business, it, it, it dissuades them from playing a big game, right? So, it’s like, I’m just going to create a small business. I’m just going to be this little thing over here, you know what I mean? Rather than like, aiming right in some sort of moonshot. Right? And every business is hard, so you may as well go big.

Penny Zenker:

Yeah, go big or go home. But the cool thing is, the cool thing is, is when you define something big, that’s when it makes you think outside the box because you can’t achieve it in the same way. So, like, I’m a big fan of that, of, of make a big goal. Like, I, I had just written my first book. The one I was speaking of is my second book. But I, I remember thinking, what can I do that would be really fun and really big? And I was like, you know what? I want to be part of a movie. I want to write a script.

Penny Zenker:

I want to do something. I don’t know what it is, but I want to be part of a movie. And that’s crazy. I had no contacts. I had nothing. But then our, our mindset, right, opens up the possibility that this, this is a possible thing. And I actually became an executive producer on a film that was called Wishman and came out around Covid. So, we had that to contend with, but anything is possible. We just have to put it out there. And then we start to think differently. We start to connect with different people because that’s on our mind. We tell people about it and they’re like, oh, I know someone, blah, blah, blah. Right. You don’t know where it’s going to go.

Penny Zenker:

And so, I always believe, set it. Go big or go home, because we live one life and why not?

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Melinda Wittstock:

And we’re back with Penny Zenker, serial entrepreneur, bestselling author and speaker otherwise known as “The Focusologist”.

[INTERVIEW CONTINUES]

Melinda Wittstock:

So, I want to get into your TEDx talk because it has over a million views. It’s called The Energy of Thought.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, what inspired The Energy of Thought? And tell me about how that’s applied in your own kind of entrepreneurial career and coaching career and what you were just talking about, ‘Okay, I’m going to be in a movie.’

Penny Zenker:

Right. Well, it comes back to what you had said a few moments ago, something about mindset, that it’s all about the mindset.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah.

Penny Zenker:

And it is. It starts and ends with the mindset. So, if we don’t believe that something is possible, if we don’t feel open to whatever is possible, then. Then we will be limited, and we will be shut down. And. And that can be also for the littlest things of, even if we’re single and looking for a partner, oh, you know, I’ll never find that person. You know, it hasn’t worked for me. I only go after bad guys or whatever.

Penny Zenker:

These stories that we tell ourselves are the things that limit us and hold us back. So, the energy of thought is to recognize where we are and how some of those stories and those thoughts are actually holding us back from the very things that we want. There’s negative energy or energy that’s going in a place of, I can’t do this… It’s, you know, I’m too young. I started my first business. I didn’t have any IT experience.

Penny Zenker:

When people said, hey, let’s get into business. And I was just doing some application development. You know, I didn’t have a formal history with it or education. And so, I was like, oh, I can’t go into business in this. Like, I don’t have a formal education. How can I tell people that they should buy from me and that I have this expertise that’s not going to work. And then this, this contractor came in to our company from the UK and he was making like a ton of money per hour, and I was managing this person.

Penny Zenker:

And so suddenly my mindset shifted from that I can’t do this, I don’t have the qualifications, I’m too young to why not me, right? Sometimes it’s just what I call a reset moment, A moment that challenges us to think differently. And I said, why not me? And so, I jumped into that not knowing, not having the history or experience, just me. And I built that to a multimillion-dollar business, and I sold it to a public company, and it starts and ends with mindset. My mindset was holding me back and it wasn’t until I opened, opened up my mindset to be able to, you know, shift that energy. And, and that’s what the energy of thought is about, is about how we, how we have control over that. That is one thing that absolutely dictates the outcome that we are going to get. This is, this is not just me saying it. It’s been, you know, shown in many different studies in science.

Penny Zenker:

Even something like the placebo effect, I talk about that in, in the TEDx. You know, we, we give people a pill that’s just a sugar pill and it has the same effect as the people who take the actual medicine. But the funny thing is, is it still works when you tell them that it’s a placebo and it’s a sugar pill. So, because somehow it still opens up our thought that this is possible, and this is going to work. So, so we do have control. And the opposite is also true. There’s a nocebo effect, which is when we tell people it won’t work then, right? Then that, that energy, it, it’s contagious and it spreads. That happens in cultures and organizations all the time, is that negativity goes through if one person says this isn’t possible, that everybody can be affected by that and, and hold everyone back, right?

Melinda Wittstock:

This, this is so true. I mean, there’s been so much written on this, right, that your team is sort of the weakest link in a way. Like if you have one person on the team that is very negative like that, or obstructionist or just…It brings everybody down. I remember very early on in my first business, I was actually speaking at Harvard, and I was at Logan Airport.

Melinda Wittstock:

I’m waiting for my flight to New York, and I just picked up this book. It was in Harvard Business Review, and it just landed on this page randomly that talked about if you have a so-so employee, a person hasn’t really done anything bad or they’re not necessarily missing their numbers or they’re, you know, but they’re just not really motivated or they’re just kind of meh. The book was arguing that you should fire that person, like, immediately.

Melinda Wittstock:

And it went into, like, the reasons why. And it was interesting because at the time I had an employee just like that who was in a management position and I don’t know, we just weren’t doing as well. There was just something. There was just something off. I don’t know, like the team just wasn’t performing as well or the. Just the vibe. And I had never really fired anyone before. This is my first business.

Melinda Wittstock:

I had terrible fear of that. It’s like, how could I actually do that? And long story short, I finally made the decision to say goodbye to this person, and I was terrified that the entire team was going to revolt. One by one, everyone on the team came to me and thanked me. And I was right. Stunned. Like. Like, I was like, what?

Penny Zenker:

Right. I mean, oftentimes you keep those people and other. Your best people will leave because they’re like, why are you tolerating this?

Melinda Wittstock:

Like, you know, like it demotivates them because they’re out there, like just, you know, and so it can be. And it was just sort of that, I guess, what Steve Jobs talks, you know, talked about, right? Like, the A. A people want to work with other A people, like really smart people, really motivated people want to be other around other people. Like that. And the minute that you have sort of a B person, right, who’s competent, you know, but not working in their zone of genius or even excellence, that B person too, is going to feel nervous or more maybe resentful even, or whatever that that person is going to want to hire someone that they can be better than, so they’re going to want to hire a C person. And before, you know, your team is falling apart.

Penny Zenker:

Yeah, that can happen, sure. I mean, I think that, you know, every situation, right, needs to be looked at. I mean, it could be there’s something going on with that person. I’m sure that that article would not be in, in the HBR today because, you know, there’s this, this whole focus on empathy and meeting people where they are, you know, emotionally and everything. So, I think it’s, you know, if you see that somebody is, is struggling and you’ve made an effort to, to help to turn it around and they’re not participating in that or, you know, then, then definitely there’s definitely a time where you have to, to say this isn’t working for them. Also, it means that they can’t thrive and flourish.

Penny Zenker:

Maybe there’s another environment where they’ll be a better fit and they’ll really be.

Melinda Wittstock:

They might be in the wrong position. Right. Or you as a leader might have screwed it up.

Penny Zenker:

Well, you know, that does happen. Like when I said, you know, I was caught up in that micromanagement, I, you know, I was the problem.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right.

Penny Zenker:

And I think that leaders have to look at themselves first. I think that that is the thing. Is there something that I’m doing that is hindering this team from performing at their best and that makes for the best high performing teams, is that everybody is looking at themselves. And that comes back to the point of dynamic reassessment and back to the energy of thought and all of that. As long as we’re constantly checking in with ourselves and not just being aware, but being willing to reinvent or, or change things. Right. If. Because plenty of people are aware of what’s wrong, but they don’t do anything about it.

Penny Zenker:

It’s, it’s taking that information and then, and those insights of how we can make it better and then, and then really taking action, whatever that looks like.

Melinda Wittstock:

A hundred percent. There’s so much more that I could talk to you about, Penny. I mean you’ve, you’ve grown and exited a number of businesses. And before we go, I do want to ask you about that because the exit is a tricky thing for a lot of founders on an emotional or even a mindset issue. You know, we built this thing. We’re like, yeah, attached to it. It’s part of our identity. What was that like for you?

Penny Zenker:

You know, it’s, it’s interesting because there’s all sorts of different things attached to it. I was living in Zurich, Switzerland when, when I sold this first business, and we sold it to a French company. And the first shock for me was, you know, at first they, they didn’t let’s just say they didn’t value me for the way that I thought they would value me. It was kind of like, okay, let’s, let’s get this positioning in Switzerland and you know, she’ll manage Germany and Austria. But there it felt like, you know, they were, they told me that language would be English and then it was still French, so I couldn’t understand anything they were emailing me or anything.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, there’s this is during your earn out or whatever.

Penny Zenker:

Yes, exactly. And you know, there was a, a year earn out in this particular program, and also just cultural differences were very difficult. I felt like I was letting my people down because it wasn’t the kind of connection that I was expecting to create. And then, and then they started questioning, you know, how much I was paying myself. And, and you know, then we, we decided to part ways, and you know, they just wasn’t as, as grandiose as I had expected it to be in terms of a, an easy transition. And you know, so I, I know that’s an issue for people.

Penny Zenker:

I, you know, as an executive coach, sometimes I have different CEOs who are at that exit stage and they’re like, yeah, but I want to exit for me, but I’m concerned about what’s going to happen to the company and the culture because then it gets integrated into this other culture and if it’s not the same as your culture. And I had never really even thought about that. I was really young at the time and there wasn’t as much in the leadership space about culture as there is now. And maybe I wouldn’t have sold at that time based on, you know, it not being a, a great culture fit. But, you know, there’s a lot of different challenges. Also, the stock market crashed and what I expected to take out of it was very different than what I got out of it. So, you know, it’s not all sunshine and roses and, and people are off to the, live on the, the sand somewhere, sipping coconuts. It’s, it’s not all, it’s not all that.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, no, it’s true. I mean, getting the right alignment and knowing like just in that earnout situation too, just even negotiating that. Well, I’ve heard all kinds of, you know, post exit stories that are just like nightmares because I think a lot of founders don’t necessarily know, you know, what they’re getting into and really planning that and understanding what you want out of it much earlier in the game. If you’re creating a company that you know at some stage will actually exit to just really be mindful. But that’s a whole other podcast topic.

Penny Zenker:

Yeah, it is, because it’s like the systems and structures that you have in place. It’s like, you know, asking the right questions and making sure that they’re not going to make changes that are going to prevent you from reaching your numbers and that, you know, because that can have a huge effect. So there, there are a lot of things to think about in, in an exit and in negotiating those contracts to make sure that, you know, you’re set up for success.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. Well, I think the overriding theme of this podcast, apart from focus, is make sure you have good coaches. And I say coaches, plural, because you, you need, sometimes you need different coaches for different aspects of, of and different coaches at different times of, of. Of your business.

Penny Zenker:

This definitely.

Melinda Wittstock:

You’ve had coaches in your life. You’re a Tony Robbins coach. Tell me a little bit about that. Like what, what you think most entrepreneurs actually need around them to really succeed from a coaching standpoint and how to actually find the right coach for you.

Penny Zenker:

So, I think when people are looking for a coach, you know, it’s, it’s finding the right fit, but it’s not finding a yes person. That doesn’t mean the right fit. Like, for me. And again, this comes down to everybody’s different. Right. For me, I don’t want somebody who’s going to just tell me yes or I don’t even just want an accountability coach, somebody to tell me this is what you need to do. And like you said, it depends on what stage of your business in. I want someone to challenge me.

Penny Zenker:

I want somebody to push me outside of my comfort zone and, and think about things in ways that I haven’t thought about things. Really be thinking about where the markets are going. You know, that’s what I would want is somebody who’s, you know, coming at it from that perspective. But I think there are people who just need somebody to check in with them every week to make sure that they are getting those most important things done that they said they were going to do. I think, asking yourselves a couple of quick questions about, you know, what, what’s your biggest weakness and what type of personality or person do you need to have to support you in elevating that? And also, what’s your greatest strength and how can you leverage off of that? I have a questionnaire that I send when I’m working with people so that they can go through this process and then understand what would make us a good fit. And also, a question that I asked that I think is important for everybody to ask themselves is, how will you know that this coaching was successful for you? What is it that you should get out of this that would make it a huge success? And, you know, asking some of those questions will really help you to reflect on what it is that you want, where you are, and where it is that you want to go.

Melinda Wittstock:

That’s really good advice. And so, for people who want to work with you, Penny, who are your ideal clients? Who do you work with, and how should people find you?

Penny Zenker:

So, right now, I do primarily keynote speaking, but I do work with a couple of executives. So, if somebody wanted to get in touch with me for that purpose or maybe to have me come and speak at one of their events or do a workshop or even just to get my book the Reset Mindset, they can go to PennyZancher360.com or Penny’s Keynote. That’s probably easier to remember. Pennyskeynote P E N N Y S Keynote.com Wonderful.

Melinda Wittstock:

So, Penny, thank you so much for putting on your wings and flying with us today and sharing so many valuable insights.

Penny Zenker:

Oh, it’s been my pleasure, Melinda. Thank you so much for having me.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Melinda Wittstock:

Penny Zenker, AKA “The Focusologist”, is a sought-after speaker, bestselling author, and former C-Suite executive of a global top five market research company. Over the past three decades, she has built and sold multiple multimillion-dollar companies—including an award-winning tech firm she founded.

Melinda Wittstock:

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Melinda Wittstock:

That’s it for today’s episode. Head on over to WingsPodcast.com – and subscribe to the show. When you subscribe, you’ll instantly get my special gift, the WINGS Success Formula. Women … Innovating … Networking … Growing …Scaling … IS the WINGS of Inspired Business Formula …for daily success in your business and life. Miss a Wings episode? We’ve got hundreds in the vault, all with actionable advice and epiphanies. Check them out at MelindaWittstock.com or wingspodcast.com. You can also catch me on LinkedIn or Instagram @MelindaAnneWittstock. We also love it when you share your feedback with a 5-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify or wherever else you listen, including Podopolo where you can interact with me and share your favorite clips.