784 Wendy Appel:

What makes a great team culture? It starts with who you are being as a leader. And how much empathy and understanding you have for the humans on your team. Do you listen? Are you genuinely interested in others’ ideas, inspirations, and feedback? Wendy Appel helps startups and Fortune 1000s alike build high functioning teams by tapping into the wisdom, creativity, and vitality inherent within – within you, and within your team.

MELINDA

Hi, I’m Melinda Wittstock and welcome to Wings of Inspired Business, where we share the inspiring entrepreneurial journeys, epiphanies, and practical advice from successful female founders … so you have everything you need at your fingertips to build the business and life of your dreams. I’m a 5-time serial entrepreneur and the CEO and founder of Podopolo, the interactive app revolutionizing podcast discovery and discussion and making podcasting profitable for creators. I’d like to invite you to take a minute, download Podopolo from either app store, listen to the rest of this episode there, and join the conversation with your questions, perspectives, experiences, and advice … Because together we’re stronger, and we all soar higher when we fly together.

Today we meet an inspiring entrepreneur who takes an holistic “inside out” approach to leadership and company culture.

Wendy Appel is a founding partner of Trilogy Effect, a leadership development and executive coaching consulting firm that companies of all sizes and industries build high functioning teams. Wendy is also the Author of InsideOut Enneagram: The Game Changing Guide for Leaders, Wendy also hosts the podcast Being Human is Good for Business.

All too often entrepreneurs can fall into the trap of hiring people like us, after all familiarity is comforting but it is bad for business. The best businesses find a way to create inclusive cultures with a diverse team – diverse in background, gender, race, experience, skills, and perspectives. Of course, that is easier said than done, and it requires an executive leader to hone their curiosity, empathy and listening skills, give meaningful voice to their team, and truly see each team member holistically as a human beyond their specific function at your company.

Wendy Appel has been transforming business cultures and executive leadership for decades as a coach and a founder of Trilogy Effect, a leadership development firm that takes an “inside out” approach to helping startups and big corporations alike boost their bottom line and innovation by creating great company cultures.

Wendy is also the author of InsideOut Enneagram: The Game Changing Guide for Leaders and hosts the podcast Being Human is Good for Business.

Today we dig deep into what it takes for you as a founder to build and motivate a great team and team culture.

Let’s put on our wings with the inspiring Wendy Appel and be sure to download the podcast app Podopolo so we can keep the conversation going after the episode.

Melinda Wittstock:

Wendy, welcome to Wings.

Wendy Appel:

Hi Melinda. It’s so great to be on your podcast. Thanks for inviting me.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. Well, I’m excited to talk to you because you’re a fellow podcaster. Your podcast is called Being Human is Good for Business. As an advisor and executive coach working for all these Fortune 500 companies and emerging growth startups and all the rest, what do you mean by being human in business? Where are we not human?

Wendy Appel:

Yikes. Well, so in short, it’s really this whole thing of bringing your full self to the office. When we were younger, used to say leave your personal life at home. There is some wisdom to that, but what got left out was who we really are and making our full contribution. How do leaders bring out the best in the people that work with and for them, and bringing all parts of ourselves in the right context to the office.

Melinda Wittstock:

Let’s break that down. In terms of, say from the perspective of the CEO, the leader of the company, ostensibly the person who’s setting the culture, what can they do best to ensure that all their team members are encouraged and incentivized, I guess, to show up as their whole being, their whole 360 of who they are?

Wendy Appel:

Well, one of the most important roles of a leader is to set clear expectations so that people know what their roles are, what is expected of them, the accepted behaviors, encourage the behaviors that support the existing culture. A very specific example might be if want to engage and involve as a leader, step back and listen, do more listening and asking and being curious than telling. So that you can engage and involve, and you set the expectation that the culture here is that we want your voice, we want to hear what you have to say, we want to encourage you to contribute. That could be in a meeting, that can be in a one-on-one meeting, but a leader’s job is more to listen than to tell.

Melinda Wittstock:

I think women sometimes fall into this role. It’s kind of the equivalent of cleaning the house before the housekeeper comes. We think we have to-

Wendy Appel:

I’ve never done that.

Melinda Wittstock:

We think we have to know everything. We think we have to be an expert in everything. Even worse, we think, I don’t know where this comes from, that we have to do everything. It becomes a roadblock to the growth of the business. The reason you have a team is they can do things you can’t do.

Wendy Appel:

Absolutely. You can’t do everything yourself for starters. Secondly, we all have different gifts. We all have different strengths. How do you in invoke, invite people’s strengths and also hire for differences, not just hire people who look and sound and talk and think like you because it creates a huge blind spot.

Melinda Wittstock:

It really does. I think often just people tend to hire people that they know or they like. This gets into a whole conversation of diversity and not just diversity in terms of gender or race or whatever, but also of experience and perspective and such.

Wendy Appel:

When we work with the Enneagram with organizations, one of the things we do is work with Enneagram as a team and look at the different Enneagram types on the team and noticing where there’s over-indexing in one area, under-indexing in the other areas, how to use the strengths and synergize the strengths of the different types and what they bring forward. Also thinking about when you hire, looking for some of these other types in a broad category that could bring additional strengths to the team.

Melinda Wittstock:

For anybody listening to this podcast that doesn’t know Enneagram or what an Enneagram is, can you just explain that so they understand the context?

Wendy Appel:

Sure. A lot of people are familiar with the Myers-Briggs type indicator or disc. Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, MBTI four letter code, and the engrams like the Meyers-Briggs on steroids. What I mean by that is that it’s nine fundamental archetypes that have their own worldviews habits and patterns of thinking, feeling and acting and what’s driving those behaviors. It gets really underneath, and it’s not a four box model. It’s a very dynamic system that has a lot of movement. It really reflects the human being, the whole human being. That’s what our clients tell us, they think distinguishes the Enneagram from any of the other typologies.

Melinda Wittstock:

Give me an example, maybe before and after with some of the clients you’ve worked with, particularly leadership teams where you’ve used the Enneagram and all your kind of consulting and background and whatnot to allow for a much more human experience at work. What tends to be the before that you find and what tends to be the results as the result of doing, or approaching it in this way?

Wendy Appel:

Right. One thing that you might find on a team, so if we look at the scale of the team, what you might find is that on this particular type of team, let’s say it’s an R&D department, you may have a lot of types that are what we call head types. They live in the what’s called the head center of the Enneagram. They’re thinking, analyzing, planning, preparing, researching, and you’re missing out on some of the heart types, more feeling centered, more empathic, more empathic understanding, the more relating types, relationship types and marketing types, know how to get the message out types. You may be also missing more of the action types, the belly types that take the ideas and move them into manifestation, move them into action, and you start looking at the team and seeing how is that playing out? What are we going to do about this? Then the team comes forward with their own ideas of how to manage for that.

Melinda Wittstock:

When you’re working with a small organization like a startup, startups are just inevitably much more nimble, can make decisions much quicker, can implement things faster. It’s kind of the nature of the realm of a startup. Working with a much larger company, things take much longer. They’re entrenched ways of doing things. It seems like this is a big change management kind of issue. Talk to me through how you actually get this right the way through the culture of a company.

Wendy Appel:

It needs to start at the top, sadly. I’ve rarely seen it work in a bottom up way. It needs to start at the top where the leadership team actually starts understanding themselves and each other better in a really fundamental way, like what’s motivating and driving these folks. They take things less personally and they see now where the strengths of each other are, and they can harness those strengths and start using them. What happens is the next layer down, they become sort of a buzz because they start hearing this new language being spoken. The Enneagram actually gets at the cultural layer and they start hearing a new language being spoken, and they start seeing differences in how the leadership team is behaving with each other and leading. Then it creates a pull. Often the leadership team will want to cascade this to the next level and so on and so on and so on.

We make sure as best we can to instill the value of not weaponizing this at all, not making it to use to blame each other, or you’re just being blah, blah, blah because you’re an X, Y, Z type. People can do that. As a consultant, I can only do so much to prevent that. When I set the stage, I make sure that I talk about that with the team and reinforce it because it will backfire on them if that’s the way that it gets used. Normally, people are pretty good about not doing that, and they actually are able to use humor with it to talk to people about what’s going on, what they’re experiencing in their type.

We have this language of are you going above the line or below the line? I can walk into a meeting and say, I’m so below the line right now, meaning I’m in a reactive place because the Enneagram has nine levels of the way that we express our emotional health or human development. When we’re below the line, we’re not at our best self. We work with helping people help each other get above the line and really giving voice to it so we know who’s in the room, what’s in the room, and how we can deal with it.

Melinda Wittstock:

It strikes me that this is a big mindset shift for a lot of people because really, what you’re really talking about is self-awareness and getting out of judgment and being more open and accepting and actually enthusiastic about diversity at a time when we see across our society and social media as a big impetus of this, where people are driven further and further and further into their own little tribes. How hard is it to make that shift to get people to really start thinking differently relative to the kind of things that we see in our society currently that is leading to so much division rather than bringing people together?

Wendy Appel:

It is a huge mindset shift. You nailed it. There’s so many components to what you’re talking about here. The first thing is to be curious. I feel like we’re not in dialogue anyway. We don’t have a healthy discourse. We’re very entrenched. The biggest bridge in any conversation is to be curious and I mean naturally curious, not ask a question to do a gotcha, not ask a question so that now I can say what I want to say, but to very much sit, be present and listen and be willing to be influenced. Doesn’t mean you have to be. It doesn’t have to change you, but be open to it. We want to use curiosity to understand each other’s point of view better. That’s a practice. We also want to be curious about ourselves, and this is a lifelong journey, so that the self-awareness, self-insight that you talk about comes with curiosity about myself and, “Wait, what triggered that reaction?”

Melinda Wittstock:

Yes. Well, I know we joke on this podcast all the time, sorry, everybody heard me say this so many times before, but if you want therapy, become an entrepreneur. There was a certain point in my trajectory as the five times serial entrepreneur that where being triggered was actually a positive thing because it was an opportunity to examine, okay, what was the subconscious belief pattern behind that? What can I release or let go of that I really don’t need anymore? It’s not serving me. Those triggers are almost a breadcrumb to your own self-discovery. You’re right, the curiosity is a critical part of that but also getting out of judgment and shame, this fear that, oh, I’m not good enough, so I’m afraid to really say what I think or such.

Wendy Appel:

Yeah, I call it the fair witness that’s sitting on my shoulder and it’s not judging, it’s just noticing because that’s the first step is to notice and then get curious about it. If you move into criticism and judgment and shame, it’s very hard to come from that more objective curious place. Given what you said, I totally couldn’t agree more. I think work is a context for our adult development and it really is our sandbox in our playground because whatever baggage we have from our childhood and home, whether we want to admit it or not, it shows right up at work. It’s a great place to grow and develop as a human being. Being human is good for business. We are humans at the end of the day. We’re not machines. Each of us in all of our humanness shows up at the office and it is this sort of, when I look at a lot of the advice and the tips and the tricks people have, “Well just do this. Well just do that.” Well, if it were that easy, people would.

You have to get underneath all of it. What am I afraid of? What are my desires? The two reigns that are driving a lot of the choices and actions that I take, choices I make, actions I take. Really peeling that away. Like you said, the assumptions and beliefs and looking at them and saying, “Well, wait a minute, is that really true? I’m acting on it day after day after day, but is that really true? How can I, in safe situations, test some of those assumptions?”

Melinda Wittstock:

Listening to you, this seems so obvious and yet it is a big lift for a lot of people because it challenges so much about the way business has evolved. We did have this old, very male dominated command-control culture, which didn’t really have a lot of humanity in it in that case, moving to much more of a more relationship based, a lot of people talk about servant leadership and such. I see a lot of change happening. If you look at any organization, the difference between something that’s okay or failing or something that’s truly great, it is really about alignment of the team, the right people in the right places, people feeling motivated, actualized and whatnot. This just seems like to me a no-brainer if you want your company to be great.

Wendy Appel:

It’s so true and yet we bring that patriarchal parental self to leadership and then we infantalize people. It’s hard for people, so adult development is going from meeting others’ expectations to agency and spending more time in agency than meeting others’ expectations of us. As leaders, we have to invite that in others.

Melinda Wittstock:

This is so true though that it does have to start from the top in the sense of creating a very safe place for people to feel that they can express their whole humanity. Moreover, in the type of company that is grounded in innovation, in other words, say a tech startup that’s disrupting an industry, innovation has to be core. If innovation is core, you have to be able to fail without fear or even feel free to share your mistakes so other people don’t make the same mistakes as you, creating a safe space for that. In my own company, Podopolo, innovation is one of our highest values and we focus a lot on operationalizing our values. What does it mean to say that innovation is one of our highest values? What does that actually mean in practice in terms of how we actually show up? It’s not just some sort of thing stuck on a website. “Yeah, we believe in innovation or we believe in abundance.”

Wendy Appel:

It’s on the wall. It’s in a frame.

Melinda Wittstock:

We do, but it doesn’t mean anything unless you’re actually dedicated to giving people a roadmap for what does that mean for how we show up on how we do our work. How do you destigmatize failure, I guess, in that context? Because that’s a very big part of being human.

Wendy Appel:

Right. To touch on something that you said around trust, because it definitely relates to failure, trust and psychological safety, which are related but distinct, are the foundation of any team. Is it safe here? Can I fail? Can I throw out an idea and I’m not going to get rotten tomatoes lobbed at me? All the different ways. Is somebody going to bully me into doing something that I don’t want to do or that I don’t feel like I’m capable of doing? Is there going to be retribution in any way? The leaders have to be very self-aware in order to create that safe container where innovation can come forward. People can fail and fail fast, not throw good money after bad, but say, “Hey, this is not going well. I’m looking at all the indicators. We need to pivot.” As opposed to we’ve already invested all of this and I don’t want to give the leader the bad news.

Melinda Wittstock:

Right. Even from a perspective as a CEO, the last thing you want is a surprise. Really you want a team that is going to tell you as early as possible if they’ve hit a block or if something changed, whether external or internal or there was just one part of the decision that we didn’t have nailed and we were missing an important piece of information. That’s changed everything. If I know early enough I stand a chance of being able to do something about it or find a creative solution. If someone is afraid to speak up, that’s when you get into these massive, massive problems of investing a lot on something that actually it turns out to be a very poor business decision or a poor relationship or whatever.

Wendy Appel:

Right. It goes to the setting expectations for your direct reports and the team, and this is our culture, I expect you to tell me, and inviting so that people know and then behaving really well. When people actually bring forward the bad news like, “Thank you.” Giving awards for it. How do you set that culture? What do you reward, recognize, and reinforce? That’s how you get culture. Who gets promoted? How do they get recognized verbally in any other way? Are there rewards, like the prize for bringing the failure forward or bringing the problem forward or whatever so people can see that it’s safe, they have to see it demonstrably, well, I can’t even say that word demonstrably.

Melinda Wittstock:

You got to do it consistently as well. When you work with your clients, what kind of processes … Because with all personal growth, whether it’s like individual or whether it’s a company, it’s a work in progress. It doesn’t go in a straight line. What are some of the challenges when you’re working with your clients that in that process that you find in terms of just implementing this? Assuming you have buy-in from the whole leadership team, they’ve hired you and they’re off to the races, what are some of the things or roadblocks or challenges that come up as they’re implementing this new way of being?

Wendy Appel:

Egos. It’s egos and not doing your own work, not doing your own developmental work. Always recognizing when you’re getting triggered, apologizing when you need to. Course correcting when you need to. We’re all going to make mistakes. We are all going to not be our best all the time. That’s just a fact. Repair work, acknowledge, which is great when a leader does that and showing that level of vulnerability and then move forward. The leader has to be aware specifically of their own attachment to how things are supposed to go and when they don’t, to not react badly in those situations. It’s the news, I don’t want to hear or go into blame. That’s one of the worst things is start blaming people. “All right, who did that? Who made that decision?” All of that and we start looking for somebody to point to.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, it’s so true. I like what you said about ego because there’s a lot of egos in business and a healthy ego is one thing that kind of drive, that gets you out of bed doing something extraordinary in a day and wanting some sort of, I suppose, recognition for that. I think a lot of people feel that way. Where ego becomes toxic, because it becomes a mask often, I think for people’s inadequacy actually. It’s like a conversation thing.

Wendy Appel:

It is. This is sort of the me-to-we that I talked about, this shift in our own adult development. My success is through others. Our success as a company is through everybody. It’s not about me, it’s us, it’s we. That is the hardest thing for people. It’s the hardest thing for an individual contributor to move into a leadership position where they’ve been recognized and rewarded for what they do individually to now I need to get recognized and rewarded for what I do with and through others. That’s a huge ego shift.

Melinda Wittstock:

I look back at some of my earliest companies and when I look back on them, and I think, what was the thing that gave me the most personal satisfaction? It was watching the team really blossom, starting way, way back, starting a news agency that had to work in a very collaborative way because we were localizing news from Congress to 300 odd public radio stations and television stations and newspapers. We were doing this with a very small team at a really high standard award-winning content. It meant that I had to find journalists that didn’t work as lone wolves or weren’t kind of ego journalists. There were very few, because they’d all been acculturated that way. My only choice was to hire and train a bunch of interns and teach them a way of collaborative journalism.

Wendy Appel:

Wow.

Melinda Wittstock:

You were better as a team. This invented a whole new operating system of journalism actually, it was way back 2002 or whatever we were doing this. I mean that company achieved a lot, but the thing that was awesome about it is where all those people are now. One of them went on to be Katie Couric’s investigative producer. Someone else was the executive producer of Face of the Nation. Someone else went on to run a whole division of National Geographic. You know what I mean? They all started as interns and we trained them up in this new way of working. That’s the thing that I just take tremendous pride in. Right?

Wendy Appel:

Wow. Well, I hear it in your voice and the excitement around it.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh yes. Isn’t it great to see somebody else do great? That’s why this podcast is called Wings because it’s all about lifting as we climb.

Wendy Appel:

Yeah. Well I love that you went with interns because they weren’t so acculturated to this other way of working. You’re like, I got to go while they’re younger and their patterns haven’t been established.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah, because teaching collaborative work where we’re all say in this case, newsrooms are all about individual achievement, journalists competing against each other for scarce column space or time on television or whatever. Yeah, massive mindset shift to be able to pull that off and to serve all these stations with localized news at an award-winning level with a very small team. It hasn’t been repeated since. There was something about that, what you’re talking about, which without knowing anything about the Enneagram. [inaudible 00:31:02] that’s kind of my instinct to go do that. That’s pretty much how Podopolo operates. All my companies have.

Wendy Appel:

I love it. I love it.

Melinda Wittstock:

Do you think women leaders are more likely to embrace this than men? Maybe it’s a generational thing too, that could be a component of it as well. I see a lot of women building businesses that are innovative in terms of the way they’re structured and much more based around what used to be called the soft skills like empathy or intuition or relationship or empowering others. Do you think there’s a difference?

Wendy Appel:

Soft skills are the hard skills.

Melinda Wittstock:

Yeah. They are. That’s what’s so funny about calling them soft skills.

Wendy Appel:

I know. I hate it. I hate using that word.

Melinda Wittstock:

I know because it’s patronizing. It sort of diminishes that actually these things that have been termed soft are actually the hardest things in life to master.

Wendy Appel:

Absolutely. That’s why a lot of organizations like, okay, we’re going to fix this organization by installing a new computer system or putting new systems and processes. We’re going to go from centralized to decentralized. It’s like, it’s the people.

Melinda Wittstock:

A hundred percent. I love that you’re breathing so much life into the original question is what does it mean to be human in business? I happen to believe that the companies that really will have the best teams, recruitment is tricky, it’s hard to find great people. Really great people are going to want to work for a company that has these values. We’re finding that with our recruiting at Podopolo because why are people from Google and Apple and Twitter and everything applying to Podopolo currently? It’s because of that, I think, it’s not only it’s a cool thing that we’re doing. We’re doing a lot of exciting work and disrupting a lot of things. It’s the culture, it’s the team.

Wendy Appel:

Totally. It’s totally that. All the people I coach, that’s huge for them. Why they’re staying or why they’re leaving. For the younger generation, it’s like we’re adults. We’re independent. Give us that. Don’t tell us. Ask us. We’re intelligent. Treat us adults. Treat us like adults. Engage us, involve us. That’s what they want. They want to have their voice heard.

Melinda Wittstock:

Sorry?

Wendy Appel:

They want to have their voice heard.

Wendy Appel:

The younger generation. When I think in terms of the older generations, much more military structure, hierarchical, come 9:00 to 5:00, do your thing, tick your boxes, leave. We’ll give you pensions and this and this and that. You stay at a company for life. We have come so far from that. These young people are like, “I have a voice. I’m intelligent life. Engage me, involve me, ask me. Don’t tell me. I want growth. I want development. Give me those opportunities.” They’re coming from a very different place.

Melinda Wittstock:

I did want to get to one of the other areas of your work just before you go, which is imposter syndrome. The fact that so many people experience this. In fact, I don’t know any woman that hasn’t on some level this feeling like, “Oh my God, one day they’re going to have find me out.” What’s the root of that and how does that get healed for an individual within themselves, but also how does a team leader really help identify and help people through that?

Wendy Appel:

It’s a tough one. I would say males equally have it. There’s just the different way in which men may respond to this inner feeling of being an imposter. There is that fine balance between humility and hubris, and we’re all searching for that, particularly women. I don’t want to get into the roots of the gender basis of that, but just to say that what I see with, so there’s how we experience ourselves and how other people experience us. How does imposter syndrome show up is the first thing? In a woman or a man, but let’s just say women, it can show up as outwardly as arrogance. It can show up outwardly as the good girl. If I do all of these things, then you’ll see how great I am. Now, this is not directly imposter syndrome, but in a way it is because it’s like I never feel like I’m good enough and I need to prove to you that I’m good enough. I’m just going to be very dutiful and responsible.

It can show up as if I don’t know enough about this subject. I need to continue to research and become an expert before I can ever take that out into the world. Whilst the men with much less expertise and knowledge are already monetizing your idea. I see this a lot. Not asking for that raise because I’m not good enough. So there is this sort of, when you talk about imposter syndrome, I’ll just say there’s sort of a not good enough, not quite ready yet. I’m afraid to go out because people are going to criticize me. I found that for myself when I was ready to publish my book and it took me 20 years before I was willing to write a book about the Enneagram because I never felt like I knew enough when I watched all of these other people who had a year’s worth of the Enneagram under their belt and we’re putting themselves out as experts.

I can sit back and criticize them and be upset about them, or I can stand in my own power and do what I need to do, which is put what I have to contribute out in the world. Less making it about a comparison to other people, which is a very dangerous place to go and more what is my unique contribution here and working on getting that out in the world. When it came time to actually press publish, I waited two weeks because what got in my way was I was so worried about people criticizing what I had done.

Two things that got me over myself because it was my ego, again, back to the word ego. It was my ego that was really on the line. Two things got me over it. One trusted colleagues and friends said, “Wendy, you’re only focusing on the criticism. You’re not focusing on all the people who are going to love what you have to offer.” The other thing that got me over it is reminding myself of my North star. Why did I write this book in the first place? Why did I just put two years of my life and everything else on hold to write this book? It was because I wanted to make a difference in the world. I felt like I had something to say. That got me out of myself.

Reorienting to your vision, your North Star can pull you out of your fears. That’s one strategy that I employ and others employ to really move beyond their imposter syndrome. Their, “I’m not good at this. I’m not good enough. Who, little me? What do I have to say that could make a difference?” Or other people who, like I said, just feel like they have to work and work and work and work and work and work and work and research before they can take it on. Then it’s kind of like the time has passed happens. Or other people, I’ve got to work harder and longer hours, but make it look easy. We see that with other people, achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve. Because I feel like I’m never good enough. I’m not worthy. I just work harder and longer.

Melinda Wittstock:

Oh, there’s a lot of that. This underlying belief that we don’t deserve it unless we’re the martyr for it. I think a lot of women have that.

Wendy Appel:

A lot of women have that. Or I’ve seen women and men move into swag. I just swag to cover up my own insecurities and vulnerabilities. [inaudible 00:40:01] to go the other way. We all have different reaction patterns to this inner sensation of I’m not good enough or I’m an imposter. Despite all evidence to the contrary, despite my education, everything that I’ve accomplished to date, I ignore that for this feeling of I’m not worthy, I’m not worthwhile. I can’t show any vulnerability, whatever that is. Getting underneath that and understanding what is driving this is really important part of the process.

Melinda Wittstock:

A hundred percent. This is so, so true. Oh my goodness. Wendy, I want to make sure that people know how to find you and work with you. What’s the best way?

Wendy Appel:

Yeah, please reach out. Our website is Trilogy, T-R-I-L-O-G-Y, Effect E-F-F-E-C-T-dot-com. My book is found on amazon.com Inside Out Enneagram: The Game-Changing Guide for Leaders. Our podcasts will be found through your service, Podopolo and other podcasting services. Also on our website you can grab them because we’ve got several of them. Yeah. Please feel free to reach out.

Melinda Wittstock:

Fantastic. Well thank you so much for putting on your wings and flying with us.

Wendy Appel:

You’re welcome. It was great talking to you. I could have talked for a long time.